Can Faz sticking with Aki/Henshaw/Ringrose for Autumn.
Agree. Like, Gavin, Forde and Cooney are all great prospects but that's all they are right now. I think moving beyond McCloskey as first replacement and giving one of these lads a go against Japan is a good first step.
I would prefer to see Hansen get a go at FB and try Osborne in the centre. I think getting Hansen and TOB on the pitch at the same gives us the most attacking options, even if Mack might not be the safest pair of hands at the back.
The big question is at 15, Keenan is out so does Hansen go to 15 or shove Osbourne there.
I say this with the caveat that TOB starts...which is a must.
He has to be rewarded for being the best Irish back since the urc quarter finals onwards & the best player on the summer tour.
Couple of open questions with Keenan out and, from there, what to do with Osborne. The straightforward selection could be to put Osborne at 15. But I wonder is there a small chance Hansen could go to 15, putting TOB on the wing, and this then opens you up to put Osborne at 12.
It'd be a lot of changes and shuffling, but that has the look of an exciting backline tbh.
Only Qs I have about Gavin is his defence at 13 (As in I dont know enough about him there). I'm not sure if he'll be a natural defender/reader of the opp attack like Ringrose is, and Osborne isnt (that may be too harsh - its just what I've seen so far from Osborne).
I'd like to add something; I will throw my toys out of cot if this NZ player comes in after the Autumn and plays a minute of rugby at the expense of Osborne, Ringrose or TOB.
And TOB to start v NZ.
If it's not aimed at me, that's fine (to be fair it was at the end of a paragraph that start with "@aloooof"), but all I ask is that you don't get ad-hominem. I'm not being any more dishonest than you are in this discussion.
Prendergast might well steer an attack better, but I think 1) on the evidence of this season it's something Crowley is improving at, and 2) it's also worth pointing out that we've completely changed how we attack; he's more suited to the type of attack we're now trying to implement. (And for me, unless Prendergast significantly improves his defence it won't matter; the upsides won't outweigh the downsides).
And fwiw, a bigger sample size doesn't automatically mean the 10 is more directly involved in the tries scored. Add in the disparity in the quality of the teams involved, and I don't think it tells us anything particularly meaningful whatsoever tbh. If, for example, you put Prendergast into the Zebre team, do you suddenly expect them to have the same try-scoring rate as Leinster? Of course not.
A better comparison might be the strike rates of Ireland in the 2024 6 Nations with Crowley vs Ireland in the 2025 6 Nations with Prendergast, with broadly the same team around them. It's a comparatively small sample size but imo tells us more than comparing strike rates of Munster vs Leinster, for the reason I've spelled out above. (I might actually look into that if I get the chance).
Yes definitely with ball in hand. Osborne is not great defensively in the outside channel.
Himself and Henshaw dovetailed well for Leinster at times. I think that ship should have sailed Internationally for Hewnshaw.
Ringrose is the first name I'd have down in the Irish three-quarter line for Autumn. Hopefully!
Gavin may be primarily used at 13 this season in Connacht. It's very exciting to see how he goes with Lancaster coaching him.
Yes lovely to have the options.
Must admit I am primarily looking towards the WC and who will be the back-up to Ringrose. Gavin may be the best fit. IF it goes well for him this season at 13.
I actually think longer term I'd reverse those two - don't think Osborne has the out and out pace for thirteen or the breaking ability and his offloading ability and kicking ability can be better utilised at 12, whereas I think Gavin's opportunity at Connacht will come at 13 and he should have all the traits to be a good option at 13, he has plenty of pace.
It's not aimed specifically at you exclusively, and while you may not have, there have been plenty of posts over the past few days essentially implying Crowley is a better attacker than Prendergast.
My point is - it's not as important, because while Crowley might be a better carrier than Prendergast, I think Prendergast steers an attack better. On balance - the overall attack is more potent IMO with Prendergast at 10 than with Crowley, and I'd wager that is a view that is shared by the Irish coaching ticket too.
Yet by your above logic, we should be crediting Crowley because Ireland had a better try-scoring rate in his time on the pitch than Prendergast.
This is particularly trite - this was in response to a specific comment that Crowley "turned the game on its head" against England, when there was actually nothing to support that.
The stats I'm providing are over the course of an entire season. It's a much deeper sample set for comparison purposes.
Yeah good problem to have. Ringrose is only 30 and will be 33 at the world cup. So he's probably good to go. Without injuries I'd imagine Osborne and Gavin will have to share time at 12 rather than 13 and I'd imagine Osborne will get most of that time.
I hope they move on from Aki but I presume they'll start him against NZ next month and take it from there. If I had to bet I'd say Osborne will start ahead of Aki in the 6N
I like Osborne at 13 personally, think he is better at exploiting a bit more space, Gavin at 12 for me has the most acceleration. Good problem to have, plenty of options!
that skillset is not deemed desirable in preference to the fundamentals of 10 play.
Again, no one is saying it's in preference, at the expense of the fundamentals of 10 play. People are saying it is in addition.
Predictably - some (@alooof ) are going to claim, but if you swapped them how do we know the numbers wouldn't be reversed
I wouldn't want to disappoint you, FTD! ;) Btw, there's a reason it's predictable.
To not give him credit for just how potent Leinster's attack is just not being honest in this situation.
This is a strawman. I haven't not given him credit ("not being honest", eh?). He absolutely deserves some credit, of course he does. But does he deserve so much credit that comparing Munster's total tries vs Leinster's total tries is indicative of anything particularly meaningful when the difference in quality of the teams is so wide? No.
I mean, it's not too many pages ago you said the following of Crowley in the England game this year:
we scored two tries with Crowley on the field and two with him off the field. Crowley had a negligible involvement in either try (zero involvement in one of them).
It doesn't make any sense. But sure, "not being honest"…
12
Cough, Osborne, Cough Cough
Remember him!?!
For as far as Prendergast has come - 4th choice 10 v Munster last year - to international debut & starting outhalf 6 weeks later;
Osborne started at 12 in that same game (and the week before and after that game) - then JordieB arrived!
He didnt play at 12 again for over 6 months.
I know Keenan is injured, Henshaw doesnt have the legs for 13, but Ireland need to have Osborne at 12 v Sharks, Munster and NZ.
IF Osborne is given the Green light at 12:
I'd be in favour of JGP-Prendergast v NZ & Aus.
Casey-Crowley v Jap & SA.
Gavin might be best at 13 (short-term) for Connacht. Osborne-Gavin is a very exciting prospective partnership at centre.
I love Bundee but it would yet another waste to start him at 12 again this Autumn.
(I dont know enough about Dan Kelly - What are is skills, Is he just more of a hard running 13?)
A huge problem here is sample size.
Like, we probably all got a bit carried away with Prendergast's performances in December/January/February when it looked like he could do it all. A few bad displays sucked the wind out of his sails and we're still trying to figure out what his actual level is. We likely won't know for quite a while yet.
Similarly, when Crowley was given the jersey and we won the 6N, the assumption was that he was now the long-term solution, but again, the more we saw, the less certain that looked and pretty soon he lost the jersey. No-one really knows what his true level is either.
So now we're at the point where every match is going to be hyper-analysed but the reality is that it we won't know where we really stand until at least the end of the season, if even then.
Yeah, that would be brilliant, but it's a secondary consideration. It would be brilliant to have a 10 with Barrett or McKenzie's footspeed and running threat, but firstly - neither Crowley nor Prendergast are close to that level, and secondly - that skillset is not deemed desirable in preference to the fundamentals of 10 play. As evidence of this - even the guys you've cited have been moved out of the 10 position lots of times because at times people have doubted their ability to execute the basics well - and we're talking about 2 players who are streets ahead of Crowley or Prendergast.
Jack Crowley's primary weakness as a 10 is his ability to implement the gameplan the coaches want him to play, and to get the team playing in the right part of the field. Too many of his 'highlight' plays are ad hoc chips and re-gathers or aggressive carries etc, but too often I feel he's not doing what coaches want him to do. I've heard that said directly from a guy who worked as an S&C coach to the Irish team.
Sam Prendergast steers an attack better than Jack Crowley does. If you compare their domestic seasons just last year - Jack Crowley played 1,374 minutes for Munster (17 games, all starts), and in the time he was on the field Munster scored 58 tries.
Sam Prendergast, by contrast, played 16 games, 15 starts, but 1,003 minutes (so 371 minutes less than Crowley, equivalent to over 4.5 less games), and while he was on the field Leinster scored 69 tries. Leinster averaged a try every 14 mins or so with Prendergast on the field. He started every European game, and led the team to a URC win.
Predictably - some (@alooof) are going to claim, but if you swapped them how do we know the numbers wouldn't be reversed etc, and unquestionably Leinster are a better team, but a huge part of that is Prendergast. To not give him credit for just how potent Leinster's attack is just not being honest in this situation.
Yeah I don't want a 10 at the bottom of many rucks. But I also don't want a 10 to not carry the ball into contact for feat of being in a ruck. I do want the 10 to be a threat to the defence and to fix a defender close to the ruck to cover the 10 in case they decide to carry into contact. I think Sam does that to a fair extent when he carries close to the defence before passing.
I think he doesn't like the physical side of the game with or without the ball.
He does a decent job of fixing the defender without ever taking the ball into contact. I'd prefer if he was dn actual threat of running through a defender occasionally, but given his physique, that's very unlikely.
I've noticed the defenders don't even bother to committ to him (put in a late/marginal tackle on him). They cover him and as soon as he passes, they drift away to cover the defence. So it's not like he's taking the defender completely out of the play, but he does a decent job when he carries close to the line. Before passing
Nobody wants a 10 buried under rucks all game, what we want is a 10 that can slip through a gap that other players can't get through, and also as @aloooof said, getting hands free to offload post contact or draw the tackle and release a player. The main issue is a player that looks like they want to run at a defence, and has the gas to accelerate through a gap and keep going to the tryline if there isn't any cover. Beauden Barrett a few years ago, or Damian McKenzie and recently Tomás Albornoz for Argentina seem to have lively stepping and accelerating from the 10 channel that creates doubts in the defence. If a 10 hasn't got the speed to do it once in a while the defence changes its focus to the centres and results in intercepts and getting trapped behind the gainline. When Mack Hansen came to Ireland first there was excitement that he might rotate in to outhalf every now and again to see what he can do, someone with his ability to evade tackles and release players around him would be amazing, Crowley at the moment is probably the closest to that type of player.
By the way, I would also love to see us evolve away from Henshaw/Aki/McCloskey to someone like Hugh Gavin, Conor Forde or Dan Kelly that looks like they could make a clean break off first or second phase and take off behind the defence. We would have to change our attack play a bit but now is the time to start tinkering, 2 years out from the 2027 RWC.
'Misinterpreteting'? on this thread? I for one are shocked.
He plays, and passes, flat to the advancing defensive line, yes. He doesn’t receive it as flat, or take it as flat to the gainline as Crowley, in general, imo. I think people are misinterpreting what’s meant by “line” here.
He might receive the ball deep but he plays to the line. That's one of his strengths.
Do you really think that? They are very different players. SP sits deep. Directs play. Yes he uses his pass to break the gain line and he kicks from deep. But he does not play as first receiver close to the gain line.
You're literally describing Prendergast's game to a T. He plays flat to the line, with delayed passes to put dudes in space.
Nobody is saying the 10 should run it every time. They’re not even saying they should run it as often as they pass or kick the ball.
But having a running threat is a valuable skill for a 10 to keep defences guessing, and to keep them honest. Like, the reason Ross Byrne has left Ireland at only 30 is precisely because he didn’t have that in his locker.
I remember distinctly a number of times during the 2024 6 Nations for example, where Crowley took it to the line and got the pass away while also committing the defender, for really good inroads.
I remember Gerry Thornley describing him in the URC final as “passing under the noses of the Stormers”. I think that’s what people are talking about.
This is 100% it. Conor Murray talks about this in his book - Ireland prize having their halfbacks get multiple touches or involvements in phase play. The idea was you’re no use to anyone buried in a ruck. The obsession on this thread with carrying the ball and making hits is absurd to me.
As I’ve said before - if what we wanted in a 10 was someone to carry hard to the line repeatedly and smash people in the tackle, then Bundee or Stu McCloskey are our best options.
Those are not the core skills of an out half.
Right, 12 for Munster though which makes the other two look fairly exceptional.
o gara had 16 tries in his international career, not his international and club career
Crowley played 10 in the a team that won the 6Ns. FYP
Im talking about since Prendergast took over. I liked Crowley a lot before then and thought his 6N season was excellent. The promise was that Prendergast would be a generational player who could manage attack in a superior fashion to what Crowley brought. I haven't seen it but seeing both operate in the same season would be a one way to put it to bed. For me the France match last season showed just how easily all the progress Ireland have made cold be frittered away. Lots of people played poorly but Prendergast looked way out of his depth, which compared poorly to Crowley's performance in France the year before.
we haven't seen enough of Crowley in green to judge how well he might organise the team and the kind of difference he would make in attack versus what Prendergast has done
Wiki has Crowley on 26 caps v 9 for Sam, Crowley led Ireland to a 6Ns championship.
On the number of tries Crowley/Prendergast score, ROG had 16 in his career between club and country. Not really what he was there for. 10s don't need to score tries, they need to kick their point and create scores for others. Both of them need to improve their kicking stats afaik. Neither are in the 80%+ range, thats not good enough for a top 3 test team.
Unfortunately we haven't seen enough of Crowley in green to judge how well he might organise the team and the kind of difference he would make in attack versus what Prendergast has done. I'd still like to see him get some game time this November, particularly if he continues ot play we'll in red, though the kicking is a real problme.
ON Prendergast being too deep and/or taking thing to the line, Dupont's disallowed try in the first 15 minutes in last years 6N was a disaster for Prendergast in my mind. He called the ball without any plan and telegraphed the poor situation he found himself in resulting in Keenan being tackled way behind the gain line, panic stations and another **** pass to Penaud. Brutal. that can be easily dismissed as growing pains in a pressure cooker situation, fair enough. But he did something eerily similar in South Africa.
Interesting numbers. Do you have NZ's? Similar population, 5 pro teams vs 4 and they awarded marginally less new caps than Ireland. How many of NZ's were against Tier 2 nations? Were any against Tier 3 nations?
