Exactly. If and when the car has taken over, the car manufacturer is responsible. Whether this is in a strictly geofenced bit of Autobahn at max 60km/h only for a few minutes like in a current Mercedes with level 3, or in any fully automated, no steering wheel, level 5 car
It feels like people who don't believe fully self driving will ever be a thing, seem to think people who oppose this view are Tesla fans?
BTW I tried before and started a thread about level 5 autonomous driving and the path there to (which is inevitable in my view, no matter who gets there first), but it didn't really take off
The car will still need to be insured by an insurer under the current Road Traffic Acts anyway. We then have the in inevitable blame game between the representatives of the autonomous vehicle and the owner and the driver.
It has often crossed my mind that there is going to be a point soon when we will be naming car manufacturers as defendants in motor traffic claims; I almost did it earlier this month for the first time when it was disclosed the automatic braking appears to have malfunctioned at the wrong time in a car, but ultimately didn’t as nothing could detract from the fact the driver failed to stop anyway.
"We then have the in inevitable blame game between the representatives of the autonomous vehicle and the owner and the driver."
With autonomous driving vehicles, there is so much more data and evidence about what happened that it will be easier to attribute responsibility and legal costs will be considerably less. Those legal costs and insurance margins all add to the business case for vehicle manufacturers. Think of all that insurance revenue and expenditure on legal costs. That's potential 'up-sell' for the manufacturers.
It's not about belief, it's hard to argue that the technology will get to a point where something can be presented as self-driving.
It's more about the pragmatic reality - the technology barrier is miniscule compared to the regularity barrier that L5 self-driving will face, especially in Europe. Maybe in the regulatory Wild West of the US they'll see something happen in the next 20 years.
legal costs are very much the thin end of the wedge. The upsell is less accidents, the issue though is not simple, e.g. if there is a deficit in maintenance, road issues, appropriateness of letting the machine do its thing (eg in icy conditions).
Seems we've all been helping Google train Waymo for free
will they do it ‘better than humans’ though 😏
A thing I always think about in regards to full automation is there's a vandalised speed limit sign I pass regularly (in the north) where someone has changed the 30mph sign to an 80, and the camera recognition on my car constantly picks it up as 80.
I had to change the auto-speed-adjust to require confirmation because the car would be rocketing up to 80 otherwise.
there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that level 5 autonomy will happen - it’s actually reasonably simple - have every vehicle on the road be aware of all other vehicles around them, and they will communicate and flow around each other to their respective destinations. Done, right? (it’s massively more complex, but you get the idea).
However, getting there requires new autonomous vehicles to interact with the old current fleet of vehicles, roads, weather and geography.
To use that overused metaphor - it’s swapping the engines on an airplane while it’s in flight - that’s what makes it so complex.
We’re here in the Tesla thread because they’ve tried for a decade to make their cars interact safely with the current fleet of old vehicles, roads, weather and geography, using vehicles with hw4 that I can buy today for €37k - and it highlights just how complex this is and how far we have to go to make progress (same with waymo - lidar or not they have similar issues, but I can’t buy a waymo)
not sure this means anything but thought of this thread when I seen it.
Added more "rural" areas, does not seem that big a deal.
Sawyer Merritt, one of the biggest TSLA shills on planet earth!
Maybe not a big deal. But fact is that Tesla now have more total coverage in the USA after 2 months than Waymo has after 6 years
That said, I won't really be impressed until robotaxis (of whatever make) are available in pretty much all major urban centres…
Surely you cant be taking sawyer at face value.
I'd believe absolutely zero of that dataset, nor its capability in that space.
Its the wild west of lies at this point.
Tesla pushing even further away from EVs and talking vaguely more about robotics and AI
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2025/09/tesla-has-a-new-master-plan-it-just-doesnt-have-any-specifics/
As expected. I think Musk recently said that 80% of the future value of Tesla will be the robots
”It's the fourth such document for Tesla, replacing the goals Musk laid out in 2023 when he said the company would sell 20 million EVs a year in 2030. This time, it is not entirely sure what Tesla's plan actually entails. The text, which reads as though it was written by AI, is at times anodyne, at times confusing, but always free of specifics.”
imagine having a North Star just 23 months ago to sell 20m cars by 2030, getting to just 8% of that stretch-target to date, and then simply binning that in favour of this new, um, whatever this is. It really does read like it was written by an Ai chatbot in fairness
TechCrunch a bit more scathing in that regard:
to be fair to Musks truly awful taste in what he thinks is funny, he might’ve just used grok and lashed it out in a tweet
reasonably short synopsis from Bloomberg of this latest master plan:
https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/elon-inc/id1714619846?i=1000724626205
TL;DR
Optimus robots are the next big product
No mention of FSD either. Presumably they don’t see any future vehicles or FSD as significant revenue projects. In fairness we’ve said that about FSD for years. Remember this is a trillion dollar business - FSD has taken so long to bring to market that people won’t pay for something others give for free or very cheaply.
It’s very hard to see Tesla announce any more vehicles in future that aren’t 3/Y derivatives.
Optimus (for home applications) has Cybertruck 2 written all over it - expensive, too complex, low sales beyond wealthy early adopters and fans videoing it for fan channels - but yet it’s expected to be 80% of the value of a (presumably in future) multi-trillion dollar entity. This document is bizarre really.
Musk knew early on the value of hype in valuations. His promises of FSD, Dojo, Cybertruck, and Optimus were/are and are the primary narratives used to justify Tesla's tech-like stock valuation. It reminds me of the lunch scene from Wolf of Wall Street; Mark Hanna: You know what a fugazi is? Jordan Belfort: Fugazi, it's a fake. Mark Hanna: Fugayzi, fugazi. It's a whazy. It's a woozie. It's fairy dust. It doesn't exist. It's never landed. It is no matter. It's not on the elemental chart. It's not real.
You keep making that same argument, but it makes no logical sense. You can hype something up once. Then if it doesn't happen, deflation and you won't be able to do it again.
By definition, the current market cap of a company is the consensus from the whole world, including people who have shares and people who do not have shares, of what the company is worth. Or do you think TSLA is only worth a fraction of the current market value? This implies that you know best and everybody else in the world has been fooled 😂
By definition, the current market cap of a company is the consensus from the whole world, including people who have shares and people who do not have shares, of what the company is worth
This is just fundamentally not the case! It has rarely ever been the case, but especially hasn't since r/WallStreetBets proved that you can make any company become worth anything without any connection to reality.
there’s a logical separation that’s always existed in Tesla -
On the one hand, it’s a car company that builds two very profitable models. Simple.
On the other hand, there’s the actual value placed in the company, which is by using those profits to fund a long line of ‘future projects’. Again, really simple and a much-followed model.
However this is a trillion dollar entity, which has cycled through many many different ‘future’ projects without ever having to deliver them (which is fine, because the car company is very profitable). Once one project has shown it has no future, another project pops up like a mushroom to replace it as ‘the future of the company’.
Is FSD now just a small side project?
What happens if the car business goes cash flow negative in Q4 as expected?
an incredibly expensive robot that will be in your home to do ‘stuff’ is not in the near future - there’s not nearly enough customers for it for a start to justify 80% of a trillion dollar business. If Tesla continue building physical things to sell to the public, it’s going to lose. It should licence it and/or commercialise it, but either way you destroy shareholder value (ie shrinking market cap)
Hey lads, need some advice. I've got a slow puncture. Down 4 psi in a week. I know from experience a slow puncture becomes a flat tyre pretty quickly.
Can I bring this to any tyre garage? I'd be worried they'd rip out the insulation or something. Or is Tesla the route to take? I might be willing to drive 60km to Sandyford to get it sorted properly (assuming I make it).
Locate the puncture if you haven't already. Then use one of these kits to seal it.
https://www.amazon.ie/Puncture-Screwdriver-Self-Service-Universal-Motorcycles/dp/B0DPJQXPJ4/ref%3Dsr_1_10?crid=2I7R4AH5WGUQC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xQtMO9LDF9Ew6N1puNbZage0U2mLHnme7zOvrQnpewUi7MW7YqtrMdep-FGEi1Vrps7B_H5Kfe7cL8C3Gmuhm8mgZlT24hXj-PElBqCy1uIBjcjl7uCoZGDaulyjUvBQgTnOkCWtV9Q89fuU_msali4tUQaRa0qMQPRAMV_aPwR0udejYCvmEUaoeWSfzJNNLfDHLMmHOuhfuZn2nj4qgNT1IUYpjzojhA9S221Mq9IVPnPyZd-kOL_4qK64fOnz8ftUMBZOwomyUFdFz3rvoiTCHcP6MZjbMipWdOwKdWk.lwzxqVYN6eXtKlM17012IDKAnhJ2JJLPJwQ8-iMIywc&dib_tag=se&keywords=puncture+repair+kit+car&qid=1757059086&sprefix=puncture+repair%2Caps%2C47&sr=8-10
I had a slow puncture in my M3 a couple months after buying it. Also lost about 3 psi per week. I was tired of topping it up and couldn't make it to the garage to repair because I was so busy at work. I tried one of these kits and problem resolved.
If the puncture is in the wrong area, you'll be needing a new tyre.
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wb.vanillicon.com/v2/b7fbe581216b33113f40cb0f1e0e9fc4.svg)
