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Women's prisons and the Gender Recognition Act (2015)

volchitsa

With the UK Supreme Court ruling that women are entitled to single sex spaces, regardless of whether a biological male possesses a Gender Recognition Certificate, the issue of women prisoners being put at risk of sexual and physical assault by males who are imprisoned with them seems to be settled over there.

But perhaps not in Ireland, where the 2015 law, similar to the one the Scottish government was set to bring in but was prevented by Westminster, has already led to women in Ireland having to be kept in even harsher conditions than usual in Limerick jail, because several transwomen, ie biologically male, prisoners convicted of violent crimes were sent to the women's estate rather than to the men's prison.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-prison-of-silence/

The prison of silence

There hasn't been a lot of detailed data available about whether transwomen (or men claiming to be TW for their own reasons), though what there has been, from the UK, shows that at best, transidentifying men (transwomen) commit violent offences at rates similar to those committed by men in general. There's some evidence that rates are in fact higher than for men as a whole, but due to lack of clear data, it's not easy to measure how much higher. The problem with the data is for example that transidentifying men and transidentifying women are often lumped together, giving an intermediate male-and-female average for "trans people", thus making it impossible to see whether women are more at risk from having transidentifying men in prison with them than they would be if they were simply put into mixed prison cells.

Now the US has also made data available, thanks to FOIA requests made by the Keep Prisons Single Sex group to the Federal prison system during the Biden administration. They've published a report on the results of that information. As in the UK, it also finds that transidentifying men are FAR more likely to be in prison for sexual assault than women, and also confirms that they are also more likely to be sex offenders than male prisoners in general.

https://usa.kpssinfo.org/FEDERAL-BOP-TRANSGENDER-INMATE-REPORT-JANUARY-2025/

https://twitter.com/NoXY_USA/status/1925745961717899379

But where there are women's groups in the UK and the US actively investigating the safety of women in prisons there, does anyone in Ireland care enough about the welfare of Irish women in prison to break the silence mentioned in the title of the first article? It seems that they don't. Apart from Paddy O'Gorman's podcast, there's been almost nothing in the Irish media. Certainly nothing in the mainstream media.

It's ironic because Ireland was constantly being held up in Scotland as evidence that their law on self-identification would work well because supposedly there was no problem in Ireland. Of course as so often in Ireland, it turns out that it's just that we just don't like to talk about awkward things. Like the conflict between trans activists' demands and women's basic rights to safety and privacy - even in prison.

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One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482932#Comment_123482932

Well, no, it's not an issue because it's simply not true that women in prison are locked up for longer because the men want to go out and play. Their playtimes are staggered, meaning that they don't get to go out at the same time and mix together, because that's generally seen as a bad idea for reasons which should be obvious, and if they're not, there's always the pictures -

At least they didn't have far to send the party invites -

At the time both Charlotte's sister Linda and her mother Kathleen were also serving sentences in the Dóchas Centre.

Scissor Sister Charlotte Mulhall enjoys rare Dublin day trip from jail - SundayWorld.com

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482932#Comment_123482932

Definitely. I was speaking with my wife a while ago and she put it perfectly. Trans women are trying to rob women of their identity.

It’s true too. Men have been doing it for hundreds (let’s be honest, thousands) of years. Is it that wild to think some men would go as far as changing who they appear to be in order to fcuk with ye some more?

I don’t think it’s all that outrageous to suggest…

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482918#Comment_123482918

and as was explained by volchista if women in prison are afforded less leisure and recreation time because of the need to keep trans prisoners segregated then they are suffering immensely.

Where is this happening?

Prisons have blocks and sections, secure wings and segregation wings.

Female child murderers are routinely segregated from general population as are women with acute mental health difficulties.

The only trans prisoner in Ireland is currently in a men's prison in segregation sharing a wing with an infamous torturer.

The Prison service has massive problems at the minute, this strawman isn't one of them.

This obsession with a minute portion of the population is just beyond creepy.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482894#Comment_123482894

....

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482962#Comment_123482962

Well, no, it's not an issue because it's simply not true that women in prison are locked up for longer because the men want to go out and play. Their playtimes are staggered,

That's the exact opposite of the claims made by a number of women who were in prison at the same time as one or more transwomen. Unless you've some actual evidence, I'm going to take their word on that over yours.

The reason you're likely to be wrong anyway - well apart from your history of wild, unfounded claims on whatever you happen to be arguing😁 - is that the women's sections are usually much lower security than the male sections (not for dangerous convicts like your Scissor sisters women obviously, so you can drop that bit of whataboutery).

This is purely because women prisoners are less of a risk to guards than the male prisoners. Hence they are normally allowed to associate freely for much of the day, contrary to many of the male prisons. So it would be very difficult to just alternate the times while taking into account fixed times like meals, and also prisoner officers' working schedules, without reducing the total time the women were allowed out.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482966#Comment_123482966

I don’t think it’s all that outrageous to suggest…

The reason it’s an outrageous suggestion is simply because if men wanted to fcuk with women, they don’t need to do any of that, they can, and do, do it anyway, and most of the time get away with it too because nobody would expect it of them, because such men are able to put on a front of purity and respectability that they don’t need to wear a frock, which would have them regarded with a far greater degree of suspicion that they were up to no good.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482966#Comment_123482966

Definitely. I was speaking with my wife a while ago and she put it perfectly. Trans women are trying to rob women of their identity.

It sounds like she needs to have good purge of her social media.

It's having an absolute field day with her.

An absolute bonkers thing to come out with.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483019#Comment_123483019

By that logic we can get rid of male and female prisons, hospital wards etc etc because men rape women anyway so what's the point in trying to reduce that number by separating them anywhere?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483016#Comment_123483016

Unless you've some actual evidence, I'm going to take their word on that over yours.

So you're happy to take someone's word, with no evidence?

The 'scissor sisters ' were imprisoned in the same sections and prisons as other female inmates, so don't know where you're going with they had more security?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482982#Comment_123482982

Where is this happening?

If you don't know, you could try reading the links in the OP. Or better, listen to Paddy O'Gorman's interviews with former inmates of the Women's Estate in Limerick Jail.

And since you don't know, maybe educate yourself?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483038#Comment_123483038

Quick google suggest he is he writes for that god bothering racist blog.

I imagine listening to him would just make me dumber.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482966#Comment_123482966

Yes. Nobody said that it was only a few priests who were abusers so let's not change anything. Well I'm wrong, some people did, but luckily they weren't listened to.

And the same logic applies too: it wasn't being a priest that made men into abusers - it was that abusers were drawn to the priesthood for the opportunities the role afforded them. We're doing the exact same thing by making transidentifying men a special sacred category who are assumed by default not to be abusers.

Ireland, eh? 😕

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483033#Comment_123483033

Unless you've some actual evidence, I'm going to take their word on that over yours.
So you're happy to take someone's word, with no evidence?

I mean, I've given you links from studies that indicate that men in prisons who self identify as women are far more likely to be there for sex crimes than the average male prisoner, so I'm not just taking one person's word over another person's, but FWIW, given two people making opposing claims, why would you not give more credit to the person who was interviewed and gave her real name, and described her own personal experience over a randomer posting stuff on the internet without even a link to his name? It's positively comical.

The 'scissor sisters ' were imprisoned in the same sections and prisons as other female inmates, so don't know where you're going with they had more security?

I don't remember, and didn't check before replying, largely because I don't see the relevance anyway. Should the Scissor Sisters have been put in the male estate on a case by case basis? If not, why not? Doesn't that prove you know very well that Barbie Kardashian is not a woman?

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483025#Comment_123483025

it’s definitely not but anyway. You can disagree, I do not care.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482791#Comment_123482791

How/Why would putting 1 Trans Women in with other women in a prison cause this?

Do you mean that them Women are then endangered by the Trans Woman? I do not see it. So are they also endangered by a lesbian Masc Woman?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483060#Comment_123483060

I prefer evidence before I randomly believe anyone just saying something.

I was pointing out how you don't require evidence from random people on podcasts.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483059#Comment_123483059

Ah sure you are right. Trans people have had it good for too long. About time they were knocked down a peg or 2.

Ludicrous. If Jesus wasn't belly laughing at this nonsense, he'd be weeping.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483016#Comment_123483016

At this point I do wonder have we listened to the same interviews, the podcast which plodder recommended I listen to this morning is this here -

https://x.com/paddyjogorman?lang=en

In it the women he speaks to recount how the prisoners playtimes are staggered, and how the prisoners in question growl at the women from their cells as they are being let out to play, not quite how they put it but I’m paraphrasing, in particular the claim that they growled and were rude and used foul language and all the rest of it.

Of course you’re free to accept or reject evidence on the basis it doesn’t suit your narrative, but asking me to to provide evidence while claiming that evidence I do provide in support of my argument is whataboutery, is obviously going to lead to your rejection of evidence which doesn’t suit your narrative - the idea that a handful of men are a threat to all women, or that women in prison are all suffering as a consequence of men being accommodated in the prison which conveniently ignores a whole boatload of context in order to make your case that circumstances in society are what they are because nobody cares about women.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483068#Comment_123483068

If trans women don’t want pushback then why are they so desperate to make everyone (including women) subscribe to their mannerisms etc?

For example apparently it’s transphobic to call breastfeeding, well breastfeeding. It’s “chest feeding”.

Bullshit!

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483064#Comment_123483064

I've already explained in detail. Maybe read back. Even the OP alone will give you good idea. There's no point in me repeating it for what must be at least the fourth time now.

And if women are endangered by a lesbian woman in prison, then that needs to be dealt with. Would you suggest the lesbian woman should be sent to a male prison? Because if not (and nobody sane does) then the posters saying it's ever appropriate for transwomen to be sent to a male prison are just admitting that they don't believe that TWAW.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483066#Comment_123483066

And yet you've completely ignored the evidence from the FOIA requests that I posted in the OP.

So what level of evidence would convince you then? Is there anything?

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483064#Comment_123483064

How are you even considering these to be the same thing, one is a biological male and the other is a biological female. Also it's not like people who commit crime are alien to lying or deceit to try make life easier ie to spend time in a less secure female prison to have an easier sentence as has been seen before. Women's rights seem fine but only when they don't impinge on the rights of men who claim to be women, gotcha.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483096#Comment_123483096

The evidence you put in the OP has nothing to do with the podcast, or what the women on the podcast said. You can believe them if you wish, without evidence.

maik3n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123482779#Comment_123482779

The masks have definitely slipped in the last page or so. You were right on the money I'm afraid. 🤦 🤦‍♂️

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483111#Comment_123483111

really? Okie doke.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483075#Comment_123483075

He did several, and I think the one linked to was a recap of them (I didn't listen this time to that so could be wrong) so perhaps that's why there's a difference.

But I'm talking about a woman called Leanne Casey, who definitely said that the women were locked up more because of the TW prisoners being let out, and also that they couldn't take certain routes around the prison, but had to take different stairwells, lengthening the time to go anywhere and thus shortening their free time, because of the male prisoners.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483032#Comment_123483032

Feel free to make that argument if you want, and I’d simply point out that segregation of the sexes hasn’t worked in preventing men who are of a mind to do so from abusing women, evidently!

There are several reasons why men and women are separated and services are tailored accordingly, but preventing women from being abused has never been one of them.

Raichų

since prisons are so overcrowded and men in women’s prisons are not an issue apparently why don’t we just stop the segregation and allow non violent male offenders into women’s prisons?

Very good, overcrowding sorted, no reason not to cos it’s not dangerous or a problem sure.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483111#Comment_123483111

But you've no problem putting women in prison in a position where they feel unsafe with the likes of Barbie K threatening and shouting insults. Isn't taht what this is all about 'feelings'. Where we care more about the feelings of trans convicts than how real women feel

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483123#Comment_123483123

Nope. How many women in women's prisons threaten each other and shout insults? And they are not separated from each other.

That particular prisoner was moved out of the women's prison anyway. The IPS decided where prisoners should be housed, I think that's perfectly acceptable.