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Irish Rugby peaked in 2023 and is now in steady decline. A Very Barron decade ahead

sxt

Irish rugby’s peak was a perfect storm of leadership, form, and timing—circa 2023. Now, with aging stars, a psychological hurdle, and stiffer competition, I see a decade of mediocrity ahead. They’ll still compete in the Six Nations, sure, but the days of being one of the best sides in the world are over

The 2023 Rugby World Cup quarter-final loss to New Zealand was a gut punch. Ireland had the best team in its history —disciplined, cohesive, and versatile—yet they couldn’t break the knockout stage curse. That defeat exposed a mental fragility that’s hard to shake

Ireland's 3 best players by far in this six nations this year were Nz born, Ireland will not be able to replace these players with the same quality ever again

Leinster’s Dominance Masks Provincial Weakness: Leinster has been the engine of Irish rugby, producing stars and driving success. But Munster, Ulster, and Connacht haven’t kept pace. Munster’s 2023 URC title was a flash in the pan—they’ve since struggled for consistency. Ulster’s internal chaos and Connacht’s limited resources mean the talent pipeline is overly reliant on one province. When Leinster’s aging stars fade, the drop-off is going to be steep

So many Irish players that are a shadow of themselves getting starting positions. Players 5 or 6 years past their prime sitting on the bench for the entire six nations this year highlight the lack of any strength in depth going forward

It was great while it lasted and was a joy to watch, but alas , all good things...

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breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123293976#Comment_123293976

Was he not behind Carberry ?

Maybe there were injuries or something but the big games like Soldiers Field Carberry was ahead of him.

Don't think anyone outside of Ulster would be agreeing with you. I certainly don't remember him being all that rated round my way at least.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123293976#Comment_123293976

yeah in 2016 and 2017 he was pushing close to sexton tbh and i thought it was a bit harsh that he went straight back to the bench against france when JS came back from injury

Paul Smeenus

Absolute nonsense. He's the first Irish 10 to win on SA soil. He was excellent.

A lot of Leinster fans disliked him because he wasn't world beater Ian Madigan. Provincial bull has always been with us. But before his arrest there was the sense that he was really stepping up.

Its quite possible to think that both he was a hugely gifted 10 and that sexual assault is bad.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294046#Comment_123294046

No. He was left behind for the trip to Soldier Field because he had just been questioned by police. Because of that, he couldn't get a visa. The IRFU initially put him being left out of the squad down to "personal reasons" before it came out in the press

fonecrusher1

I couldn't care less what province he played for (I'm not interested in that shite) and I'm not letting his arrest history taint my opinion on his rugby caliber. He was a decent fly half but I still don't remember him being consistently very good for Ireland. Yeah you could say well thats because JS was the dominant player in the position & maybe he couldn't get a run of games to show his form but I don't recall anyone fainting in horror at his exit from Irish rugby.

A good player but JS was on a different level.

Podge_irl

Of course JS was on a different level - he is likely to be on a different level for every fly half we have for the next 30 years. PJ was easily the best 10 we have had since Sexton came through though. I'm 50/50 on whether he would have overtaken Sexton by the 2023 world cup, but it was definitely a live possibility.

He was a big part of our first win in South Africa and was very good for the whole tour down there.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294110#Comment_123294110

Fair enough, but there were plenty of folk like @sprucemoose above that thought he was starting the challenge Sexton. It was certainly stating to creep into the media discussion - not that he was better than Sexton, but that this 24 year old (which was the age Sexton debuted) was going to be the long-term answer and might be competing with him before long.

Former Former Former

I think people are forgetting just how good Sexton was right up to the end, it’s no slight on Jackson to say it’s extremely unlikely that he would have got near Sexton.

But it’s even less likely that Carbery and Ross Byrne win 60 caps between them if Jackson didn’t have his issues, or that Jack Carty starts a test in a World Cup. That one still blows my mind, so he was a sizeable loss alright.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294260#Comment_123294260

Granted its possible that Jackson would have continued to improve but I wonder if we'd have won any big games we lost if he had been involved, or if we'd have won the championship this year if he'd eventually inherited the shirt. I'm not sure he's a better player than Crowley.

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294061#Comment_123294061

Nonsense. He was a more-than-capable back-up but Sexton is the best 10 Ireland has ever produced by a country mile.

He was never pushing Sexton close

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294283#Comment_123294283

Jackson would have been our starting 10 the past 2 years with 12+ years of test experience where he would have been, in the worst case, coming off the bench if not starting plenty of games. You'd be talking about what, a guy with 70/80+ caps or more versus a complete newbie?

We wouldn't be sitting here talking about our 10s needing time to get used to this level of rugby. Different story altogether.

Similarly, I don't think we leave a busted Sexton out on the field for the entire 80 minutes against New Zealand in the RWC if we had someone of Jackson's quality and experience (assuming he continued along the trajectory he showed) on the bench.

Getting himself sacked has had an impact on Irish rugby and it's still having an impact.

a2deden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294314#Comment_123294314

Wouldnt say Sexton is a country mile better than ROG in any world

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294330#Comment_123294330

Well, he was. Simple as

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294330#Comment_123294330

Sexton is one of the best rugby players to have ever played the game.

Ronan O'Gara is nowhere near that league.

a2deden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294340#Comment_123294340

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294349#Comment_123294349

Sure

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294353#Comment_123294353

Great debating skills there mate. Pleasure to have had this discussion with you.

a2deden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294355#Comment_123294355

Maybe have a look at your own post buddy, we both brought similar level of depth to the conversation

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294365#Comment_123294365

Because all of the evidence is in my favour. Number of Grand Slams, Six Nations titles, Lions test caps, European Cups, URC championships (and all previous iterations), World Player of the Years (and nominations) etc etc.

You've no evidence to back up your claim that Ronan O'Gara was in Sexton's league. That's not a slight on how good O'Gara was, but more it's about the level of which Sexton reached. He was a World Player of the Year nominee at the age of 37. O'Gara never got near that level in his prime, never mind at 37 years old.

Your turn.

leakyboots

Jackson was a good outhalf, big loss (rugby-wise obviously). Much better than Madigan for me.

Always thought Jack Carty caught too much flak for that Japan game, whatever about his international pedigree.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294353#Comment_123294353

O'Gara wasn't even in Stephen Jone's league.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294102#Comment_123294102

Ah. I thought that was the year after but that was charges in 2017

a2deden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294405#Comment_123294405

Well all those titles were won by the team not Sexton. Using your Logic Parisse was a nobody. World player of the year nominations are dominated by winning teams, hence why NZ tended to win while ROG was at his peak.

Lions test caps again you ignore ROG was up against Wilko and to a lesser extent Jones but both them players are ahead of who those who rivalled Sexton.

And neither of them were able to actually get us what we wanted which was a SF

But you use a lot of team wins, Leinster when Sexton was playing are better than Munster when ROG was playing. In reality Leinster when ROG was playing may have been better than Munster

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294547#Comment_123294547

Stephen Jones is ahead of Owen Farrell? Not sure many people would agree with that.

For what it is worth Parisse was twice nominated for WPOTY also.

Sexton was better than ROG. Whether you want to use the phraseology of "country mile better" is up to the person and their definition of what that means.

Jackson wasn't at the level of either, but then he was only 25 (?) when his Irish career ended. I think it is easy to forget how somewhat ramshackle that tour to SA was, we were missing a shedload of players through injury and we came within a hair's breadth of winning the series.

As to the greater point, awec is correct that Crowley and Prendergast have come into the position due to the position being open rather than having to get past anyone. Neither are the finished article, or even that close to it, yet.

a2deden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294602#Comment_123294602

I never said ROG was better than Sexton, a country mile is a lazy way of saying hes far better when he just wasnt, better sure way better nah

BOD/Aki/Darcy all are top 4/5 placed in world player of the year at some stage

Would you argue Aki is as good as BOD or man even Darcy using the world player of the year award placement, Aki has also won as much grand slams as both combined from my recollection (I could be wrong) he likely has won more 6 nations and he also won the URC with Connacht, man even writing this im starting to think Akis the greatest player of all time lol.

I actually liked Jackson, he will forever be a big what if regarding the last world cup, alas he was a bit of a dick

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294623#Comment_123294623

But none of them ever won it.

Johnny Sexton, by his peers, was judged to have been one of the best players in the world and at a certain point, the best.

Ronan O'Gara was never within an arses roar of that conversation throughout his career.

A country mile isn't 'lazy'. What's lazy is hanging onto some bizarre thought that O'Gara was close to Sexton's league when he never was.

As I've said. Sexton is up there with Carter and Wilkinson as the best 10s to ever do it. O'Gara is not and never was and he was never close to being in that conversation.

You can talk about semantics about it all you want but there is zero evidence that O'Gara is anything less than a country mile off.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294324#Comment_123294324

Yeah, the one I consider the biggest game he was missed in was the 1/4 where the coaches didn't trust Crowley, though plenty of people whose opinion I respect maintain that Sexton played fine for the last 20 minutes.

a2deden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294657#Comment_123294657

Sure

AbusesToilets

there's also the impact that had on Ulster. Whole generation of players that kinda got knocked sideways with the loss of Jackson and Olding.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294657#Comment_123294657

Much bigger gap between Carter and Sexton than Sexton and O Gara to be honest.

jacothelad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123294872#Comment_123294872

And hundreds of supporters who left and never came back.