Would GAA (football) solve a lot of its problem if it had a single, proper championship?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123026807#Comment_123026807

Connacht and Munster have a lot to answer as well with lopsided draws devaluing qualifying for a provincial final.

Ulster then are quite content to support the provincial championships. What are Ulster's reasons for wanting to maintain the provincial championships?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123026807#Comment_123026807

Not accepting that Munster is a complete shambles makes your Leinster claim pure and utter rubbish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020662#Comment_123020662

Yeah this seems fine and probably an improvement on the status quo, I'm not disputing that at all. My problem more comes from what I've already stated- the Leinster Championship would continue to be a shambles and interest and participation would continue to decline in that province. As the Leinster Championship continues to feed into the All-Ireland, the rest of the counties are harmed by this shambles continuing too. This state of affairs isn't any good and if we are going to reform the structure, then we should deal with this problem.

I know what you've said about the Provincials not going anywhere but I think that is defeatist and just accepting that the shambles in Leinster will inevitably continue and feed into the All-Ireland doesn't serve the GAA well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123023785#Comment_123023785

I was agreeing with the comment on Leinster. Connacht 2023 - Sligo and Munster 2024 - Clare provided weak finalists through a lopsided draw. Louth 2023 and 2024 actually would have qualified for the All Ireland through their league placing in fairness.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020662#Comment_123020662

Leinster is in a weak state ? are you having a laugh ? Total Kerry dominance for over a century in Munster , deflect deflect !!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019684#Comment_123019684

Again as long as the shambles of the Munster championship is retained any reforms are doomed to failure

85 Munster titles is total dominance , Leinster has nothing like that dominance , But sure you know this , typical bitter Kerry poison from this poster .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019684#Comment_123019684

2024 Example Round 1:

SEED 1 V SEED 4 (provincial winners rewarded with home advantage.)

Kerry v Down, Galway v Westmeath

Dublin v Cork, Donegal v Louth.

SEED 2 V SEED 3 (separate draw for home advantage.)

Derry v Roscommon, Mayo v Cavan

Tyrone v Monaghan, Armagh v Meath. (Arguably Meath guaranteed at least Seed 3 and advantage home for winning Tailteann Cup 2023.)

Leinster is still in a weak state, reflected by the number of counties missing out in the All Ireland. If the Tailteann or possibly even the addition of a Third Tier is their level, so be it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123015509#Comment_123015509

This is actually a pretty good proposal and if the Provincials are to be kept then it may be worth a try. But again, as long as the shambles of the Leinster Championship is retained, any well-meaning reforms are doomed to failure. Interest and participation will continue to decline in the biggest province, harming the counties there and also the counties in the All-Ireland competition which it feeds into. I don't think anyone truly wants that but unfortunately the process is well under way already.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123015182#Comment_123015182

I was about to post similar meself. Saying Dublin more dominant than Kerry at a provincial level, is just recency bias. The Dubs only really dominated Leinster for the last 15 years. The time before that was the 70’s. Kerry have dominated Munster virtually since the foundation of the GAA.
And it took the odd Covid AI for Tipp to win Munster. Where Aussie Rules lads stayed at home in Ireland. And the fact the Clare Munster win is STILL spoken about over 30 years ago speaks volumes. Then you have the wildly inconsistent cork team the arse fell out of Cork football along time ago. Munster is a hurling province, with one of the favourites for Sam each decade having it handy. Even that great Kerry 70s/80’s team only had to play two real games to win Sam.

As for the poster who said Dublin should move to Ulster. Personally I wouldn’t mind it as Ulster teams are one dimensional and predictable. The new rules won’t suit them. Even a weakened Dublin side as is would find them to have not much variety. The problem with Dublin moving to Ulster-

Kerry left for the handiest run for Sam in the country.
Ulster becomes the defacto AI overshadowing the Sam itself It would have five div1 teams if Dublin joined.
The Leinster council lose their biggest brand. There might be a novelty factor at first. But Leinster without Dublin becomes the O’Byrne cup in all but name.
Ulster might not be keen on “Free Staters” playing in Ulster Championship .

However the main reason I wouldn’t mind Dublin moving to Ulster is because I am sick of looking at two of the most mismanaged teams in the country Kildare and Meath. Even Westmeath, Wicklow and Carlow, Louth would put it up to them. I will say it outright both Kildare and Meath are joke counties at this stage. If you put a Jim Gavin type of manager in charge of either, no way would they be doing as poorly. There are players there, but they are not being managed correctly IMO.

Provincial winners only should qualify through the provinces. The Tailteann winner and 11 league qualifiers should make up the remainder.

ROUND 1

Provincial winners at home versus Seed 4s.

Seed 2s v Seed 3s. Separate draw for home advantage. (Debatable that the Tailteann winner could be guaranteed at least a Seed 3 and home advantage.)

ROUND 2

8 Round 1 winners. Separate draw for home advantage. Provincial winners kept apart.

REPECHAGE ROUND (Round 2B)

8 Round 1 losers. Separate draw for home advantage.

PRELIMINARY QUARTER FINALS

Round 2 losers v Repechage winners. Separate draw for home advantage.

QUARTER FINALS

Round 2 winners v Pre QF winners in Croke Park as normal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123013411#Comment_123013411

Yes putting Dublin in Ulster is 100% a mad idea , Ulster is already competitive enough

Kerry have dominated Munster for over 100 years , remove Kerry from Munster and Munster becomes competitive again

Put Kerry in Leinster , that would make Leinster competitive , put Kildare and Wexford into Munster

Advantages would be Kerry are playing in a more competitive championship , unlikely to win 85 titles in Leinster

Cons Kerry supporters would not be in favour of this as they are so used to total domination of there province

Kerry supporters hate travelling except for All Ireland finals , not surprising as hammering Waterford Limerick Clare etc by 25+ points is not very attractive , however taking on Dublin in Leinster would surely get them traveling in greater numbers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123013553#Comment_123013553

Munster is as it ever was with Kerry ahead of the rest but not to the extent that Dublin are in Leinster.

Really ? Have to disagree with this

Kerry - 85 - Ridiculous amount of titles total domination !!

Cork - 37 - Last title 2012

Tipp - 10 - Last title 2020

Clare - 2 - last title 1992

LIM - 1 - last title 1896

WAT - 1 - Last title 1898

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123013553#Comment_123013553

you’re not winning Leinster, Dublin is in Leinster. If you win in their absence you can’t call yourself a Leinster champion. You’re a Leinster minus Dublin Champion. Therefore it’s meaningless.

I think you can grasped my point, but didn’t grasp its significance.

username2013

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123013493#Comment_123013493

Sorry how do you mean they are no longer competing for Leinster? Dublin would be the team moving to Ulster?

Do you mean as Dublin are no longer in it, it is not really the Leinster championship as we know it and as such it's meaningless?

A lot would argue that the current Leinster champo is meaningless as it stands. I may have misunderstood your point though.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123013411#Comment_123013411

I think you’re missing a pretty massive con: the other counties are no longer competing for the Leinster championship, they are competing for the Leinster - Dublin championship.

As a Kildare fan I wouldn’t take my hands out of my pockets if we won it. Meaningless.

username2013

Hopefully the new rules will help the game itself. As for the championship structure - some good well thought out proposals above - but as some have mentioned very difficult if not impossible to implement due to the way the GAA and provincial bodies are setup.

Personally I feel the biggest issue by far is the Leinster championship. Dublin are so far ahead of the others and everyone (players and supporters) have become disillusioned and this is evident in the reduced attendances. However if you take Dublin out of the equation, the rest of the counties are at a similar level.

Ulster I think is a good championship, fair enough there can be some negative games but at least it's mostly competitive with teams like Donegal, Tyrone, Armagh and Monaghan all winning Ulster in recent years.

Connaught I would argue is also not too bad - with potential winners between Roscommon, Mayo and Galway.

Munster is as it ever was with Kerry ahead of the rest but not to the extent that Dublin are in Leinster.

So my mad idea to solve the issue in Leinster would be to move Dublin to the Ulster Championship for a period of 5 years.

Advantages would be:

Dublin are playing in a much more competitive championship against teams capable of competing with them such as Derry, Donegal, Tyrone etc
Much more competitive and engaging Leinster championship as a lot of teams are all of a similar level and would fancy their chances of winning.

Potential Cons

Dublin and their supporters would not be in favour of this - but are they in favour of continiuing the Leinster championship in its current guise? Attendances would suggest not.
More travel involved for Dublin fans - Although true Dub fans love to get down or up the country - playing Derry away in Celtic park seems a lot more attractive than hammering Wicklow by 20 points in Croker.

In the period of 5 years when Dublin are in Ulster, funding would be increased to other counties in Leinster with the aim of getting them back to a competitive level with Dublin. (in fairness it might be tough to do this in 5 years)

Anyways I am sure with both the provincial councils and congress - something like this would never come to pass - but it seems to me like it could work. Something similar was done in the hurling when Galway were added to the Leinster championship rather than Connaught some time back.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009830#Comment_123009830

A lot of sports worldwide have regional representation. The GAA are no different through provincial representation.

The only county of place in the 2024 All Ireland series was Clare. Clare finished below Down in Division 3. Clare only had to beat Tipperary or Waterford, both from Division 4, to make the Munster final. Clare beat Waterford. Down were consigned to the Tailteann.

I personally would suggest seeding provincial draws on league placing. Another option is that provincial winners only qualify through the provinces. All provinces regardless of seeding can only produce one winner.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009980#Comment_123009980

A tiered Leinster championship is a Leinster matter. I merely suggest for setting a qualification standard. While the Leinster championship is terrible, it should not distract from Ulster and Connacht.

Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford have a lot to answer for the terrible Munster finals being served up. The footballers of Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford demanded the current Munster seeding. It is resulting in a lopsided draw. Clare hosted the 2024 Munster football final. There was a poor crowd in attendance. Clare getting to a Munster final through a lopsided draw did not gain the respect of their own people.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009912#Comment_123009912

That's all well and good but it still doesn't answer how seeding/ a two-tier Leinster Championship will prevent it from continuing its rapid decline from the shambles it has already become. Even if reforms somehow were to work, it wouldn't be at anywhere near the timeframe necessary- interest and participation in Leinster has already cratered. We need radical reform, not tinkering around the edges.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009761#Comment_123009761

In 2024:

4 of the 7 league qualifiers were from Ulster: Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan and Cavan.

1 of the 7 league qualifiers were from Leinster: Westmeath.

1 of the 7 league qualifiers were from Munster: Cork.

1 of the 7 league qualifiers were from Connacht: Roscommon.

There is an argument that league qualification is doing what it was designed to do and that Ulster are benefitting from that.

Two Leinster counties have won the Tailteann Cup. Westmeath and Meath. There is also an argument that the Tailteann Cup is doing what it was designed for.

The GAA did speak with counties about the possibility of adding a Third Tier. Counties were not in favour. I think it was the Carlow manager who said the onus is on them to improve if they are to win the Tailteann. The Wicklow outside manager is in favour of the Third Tier. It is probably inevitable but in time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009874#Comment_123009874

The way I see it anyway football in Ireland is 10 - 12 counties whatever future set up a championship has it should set to get to those 10-12 as the main championship. Football is in a much stronger state than Hurling, where there is a massive gap between the top teams, no depth in the game.

Yet football still does not manage to set up an interesting competition that is fit for purpose. Because their hands are tied by GAA "democracy" on the one hand, and "tradition" on the other.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123006839#Comment_123006839

2 months to read the post and you still missed the part where I already said it wouldn't happen because it would mean less money.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009503#Comment_123009503

The provincials have really odd breakdowns all over the shop with teams of varying quality.

The map of the teams from the national league really tells a story

How often do people look at it though? It really shows how unbalanced the championship is. In a word it is just daft.

The table above shows how unbalanced it is Connacht have only 5 teams come championship time NY and London are thrown in for the craic, yet Leinster have 11 why 11 counties?!! 7 of them were division 3/4……

The south east of the country is a football wasteland in particular. Munster and Leinster have only 1 div 1 county each. Ulster will have four division 1 teams four!! Yet people wonder why the provincials are not competitive??????

I know the Rossies got relegated to div 2 but they were hard done by and had a decent league. Monaghan are finally on the dip after been greater the sum of their parts for years. But they have now been replaced by two div2 ulster teams who got promoted.

- Ulster 9 teams meaning a preliminary competition is needed for at least two teams have to have a preliminary competition.

The whole thing is madness.

—

What they should do is the following

Based on the league wouldn't a idea be that each "conference" be created after the league div 1 teams get a bye to the last 10.

Div 3 and 4 teams play each other in a knockout blitz (preseason as they did not like the preseason competitions being scrapped, this would solve it). Come championship time the top two from this go unseeded against the seeded top two from div2 in a play off.

Leading to a group of 8 from division 1 and a final two from that play off system - with 10 counties which can play in a round robin knockout home and away resulting in a top four which go on to the AI semi finals.

I have not forgotten about NY by the way. They no longer compete in the championship but are a venue on rotation for an all star match— proceeds going there

What of the Ulster Championship?

Ulster can change the name of the McKenna Cup to the "Ulster championship" if they wish and run if off preseason. And this is where I think Ulster needs a firm hand, if they don't abide by the "new" championship structure they should be suspended from the championship proper, and fined. Connacht can change name of the FBD to the "Connacht championship if they wish. Make it a preseason competition

Change the voting system at Congress, one province/and single county should not be allowed to hold the others to ransom IMO. The same goes for ANY other county that kicks up a fuss.

—

Time and again the league as shown that football in this country is div 1 plus the top 2 from div2. The rest bring the standard way down. The championship should reflect the reality.

Did you smash it

the Gaelic championship has far too many teams. That’s the basic problem. More than half are making up the numbers and make no impact season after season. An open draw won’t fix that problems. Jim Gavin’s new rules isn’t even addressing that problem.

There are 18 teams in the afl and that’s a professional league for a far larger country that imports players from other countries.

In 10 years hopefully there will be 10-12 professional teams but there’s an omertà around the real problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009503#Comment_123009503

Fair enough and I appreciate Leinster is a hard problem to solve given the scale of the problems there. But that proposal won't make any difference to standards there? It will still be an uncompetitive shambles even with seeding and a Tier-2 competition. Even if it does somehow make a difference it'll take years- which means more declining interest, competitiveness etc. Leinster needs radical reform, quickly. And I also don't think one Province alone should be treated a certain way- either they all should go or all remain the same. I think they all should go.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009151#Comment_123009151

What's your proposal for dealing with the shambles of the Munster Championship ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009151#Comment_123009151

Connacht, Munster and Ulster should have decent provincial finals anyway.

Leinster should probably consider a Tier 2 Championship at least to try and raise standards. At least 5 counties in the Tier 2. That is a Leinster matter. I merely suggest for consideration.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123008525#Comment_123008525

Just on the single proper championship issue. @Bucke

That's the main problem and mindset wise the Ulster crowd are very territorial for obvious reasons. Basically the Ulster Council is holding any ideas back.

I am a bit mixed on Ulster yeah it is competitive, but Jayus they can play some turgid stuff. I remember looking at the same match can't remember who. But it was televised both on RTE and BBC. On the BBC you would swear it was the best match in the history of football, the commentators were extremely animated etc. On RTE the vibe was, "This is not the best of games". It was hillarious and this was exactly the same match!

—

Main problem with Ulster is they mostly all play the same way, same safety first keep ball stuff. (Donegal, Derry, Armagh, Monaghan) And they might break on the counter. Thankfully Tyrone seem to be a bit more off the cuff these days letting star forwards cut loose.

I think eventually the provincials will end up as the new "preseason" competitions. Then the "championship" will be two seeded championships based on league positions. Div 3 and 4 in a blitz style to get a top 4 in the championship 2. And div 2 and 1 the same idea for championship 1.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123009060#Comment_123009060

What's your proposal for dealing with the shambles of the Leinster Championship then? While seeding is probably a marginal improvement it really will make no difference to competitiveness or interest there. They'll continue to decline under your proposed reforms.