Replacing previous thread which has continuing page count issues.
Previous Thread
Previous Original Thread:
Threabanned posters:
brickstser69
slay55
mulbot
Ukraine does have options even now. Spurning negotiations has not helped Ukraine and its not served Ukrainian interests. At every point where Ukraine chose to spurn negotiations, its worked out badly for them. Crimea in early 2014 after going back on the power-sharing deal. Donetsk and Luhansk lost after refusing to negotiate with the separatists. The territory lost since 2022 after pulling out of the Istanbul deal.
In no way can Ukraine be said to be in a better position now than it was entering negotiations in 2022 or 2014. If the Minsk agreements had been implemented, or the Istanbul agreement reached Ukraine's position would be vastly better. At all times the "friends of Ukraine" have argued against negotiations, and at all times when following their advice, Ukraine's position has gotten worse. To the point that even the "friends of Ukraine" acknowledge now that the 1991 borders is unachievable.
That has been the end result of 10 years of the never negotiate stance. It's just led to Russia taking more.
Time to blow these orcs out of existence. What do they contribute culturally, economically and politically? We in the west have been existing quite perfectly during this period of ruZZian isolation. I'd be quite in favour of inetrning the lost of them in the west and sending them back to putin's meatgrinder. Have never met a nice ruZZian nazi!
If one were to purely look at the battlefield in terms of territory gained/lost, I can see how one might make the mistake to think that Russia is winning this war at the moment.
If we look more broadly at all the battlefield statistics being reported, it's clear that the Russians are losing men and materiel at unsustainable levels while Ukraine is still refusing to sacrifice it's future by holding off on mobilising their youth. Certainly, Ukraine is losing soldiers too but almost three years in and we've seen few, if any, confirmed reports of battles where Ukraine has lost more than Russia. Sacrificing territory for the lives of those who'll continue to bravely defend the next line is sound military doctrine.
Again, looking at the wider picture. Almost every "successful" missile strike by Russian forces reported involves them murdering civilians. Contrast that with the multiple UAF strikes we're hearing of every week where they're dismantling the Russian war machine and the petrochemical infrastructure funding it. One side's "successes" encourage it's opponent to fight on, the other's damage the invaders ability to fight on (and in turn destroys the morale of the invader's troops).
Sure, ceterus paribus, it's hard to see Ukraine managing to militarily turn the tide on the frontline to the extent that they could fully liberate the lands stolen from them. The status quo never remains the status quo, however. There are many, many things which could change this situation.
One of the simplest is the fact that the dictator in charge of the aggressor is a 72 year old man in a country where he has a life expectancy of 73.4 (2019 data). Even in the US, this demographic has an incidence of heart attacks of about 18% (while Russian figures are far higher, it's probably more accurate to use US stats as Putin's healthcare is more likely to be on a par with a first world country than the second world kleptocracy he rules).
The Russians made a very foolish mistake in Bucha by demonstrating to Ukrainians that surrender means death, torture, rape and destruction. A negotiated settlement that doesn't involve full NATO membership for Ukraine (or iron-clad guarantees of US lead "boots on the ground" support in the eventuality of a further incursion) - something which Russia is utterly unwilling to accept - amounts to little more than a slower surrender so Ukrainians will fight on with or without US support. Europe hasn't been as supportive as it should have been either but it's a pretty fair assumption that even if Putin's pet pervert totally pulls US support in January, Europe will step up more. It may not amount to as much support as the US would be withdrawing in this scenario but, it'll keep them in the fight until such time as Putin dies, the oligarchy/silovicki get sick of watching their fortunes dwindle, the Russian economy collapses completely or some black swan event occurs.
I'm the same age demographic as most of the men in the UAF and you can be damn sure were we in the same situation as Ukrainians have found themselves in: where surrender meant sacrificing my wife and underage daughter to the depravities of Russian soldiers, I'd be staying on the frontlines to kill as many of the bastards as I could (or more realistically given the fact I'm an overweight, out-of-shape middle aged guy with no military training: working in whatever support role my superiors deemed me most useful in) before I inevitably met my fate.
The furious response from Russia once again highlights how they fear Ukraine getting better military assistance. In many cases it doesn't even mean sending more. It means lifting restrictions on what they already get.
Meanwhile in Russia another Putin critic has an unfortunate accident out a window…
A Russian ballet dancer who was an outspoken critic of Russia’s war in Ukraine has mysteriously plunged to his death from the fifth floor of a building. Vladimir Shklyarov, a married father of two, plummeted around 60 feet to the ground from a building on Saturday, a spokesperson for the Mariinsky Theater in St. Petersburg, where the 39-year-old was the highest-ranking dancer, told Fontanka.Russian authorities initially labeled the fall an accident, blaming the painkillers he was taking before a complex spinal surgery
A Russian ballet dancer who was an outspoken critic of Russia’s war in Ukraine has mysteriously plunged to his death from the fifth floor of a building.
Vladimir Shklyarov, a married father of two, plummeted around 60 feet to the ground from a building on Saturday, a spokesperson for the Mariinsky Theater in St. Petersburg, where the 39-year-old was the highest-ranking dancer, told Fontanka.
Russian authorities initially labeled the fall an accident, blaming the painkillers he was taking before a complex spinal surgery
Rub just went over 100 to the USD. It'll likely dip back under again, but another sign things are not economically going well for Russia.
Defense of their own land is the goal for Ukraine.
Ideally to reclaim what Putin has invaded and stolen. Most of us suspect that full reclaim may be very difficult (unless the Ru military or the leadership has a partial or full collapse) and that down the line this will probably end at the table. Ukraine don't have any option but to defend themselves and fight as hard as possible, anything less only encourages Putin to take more from them.
Again the language and phrases you use are bizarre and betray all kinds of strange world views.
Outright victory is the goal for Ukraine. They want to restore their 1991 borders and the "friends of Ukraine" have told them for 3 years now that they will back Ukraine for as long as it takes.
If the "friends of Ukraine" have some different goals or aims that dont align with Ukraine's own aims, they need to be honest about that too so the Ukrainians understand that NATO wont back them for along as it takes.
The EU isn't going to move to a permanent war economy either. That means cutting spending on schools, hospitals, housing, public transport, pensions and so on at a time when the economy of Europe is already suffering due to losing access to cheap energy (not to mention a lot of the raw materials for military production are sourced from China, and Russia). The voters simply aren't going to back it for some fantasy of building an army millions strong. The "friends of Ukraine" need to be honest with themselves too.
Well look what happened with Nordstream so no point jumping to conclusions
Hmmmm,Who would do such a thing??
Let me think….
The acts are tiresome.
Prior to the war there was much more direct support of Putin and his anti-Western viewpoints. Post-war that was more difficult to get away with. So supporters adapted by using a variety of disingenuous techniques, one of these was this act of "being objective", cosplaying that they were objective about the conflict when in reality they held an agenda. There were a lot of giveaways to this, e.g. they would never call out other Putin supporters, and would even thank and support them - all pretty transparent stuff.
Most people are realistic about the war, however many choose, through support of Ukraine to focus on positives.
Putin supporters (and anti-Western types) undermine that support/optimism because it irritates them. Yeah it's that simple in many cases. As mentioned they are careful to disguise that with the "objectivity" mask.
It's all very easy to spot. We've even seen new posters invest weeks and weeks into apparent support for Ukraine, only to rip off the mask and go full Clare Daly.
A lot of hijinks going on.
TLDR it's very easy to tell the difference between an individual who genuinely supports Ukraine and those who don't.
Anyway moving on, Ukraine to receive 4,000 AI assisted drones from Germany, apparently some have already been tested in Donbas. No idea how these perform but should (hopefully) be better than the old Switchblades Ukr got.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/media-ukraine-to-receive-4000-german-attack-drones-with-artificial-intelligence/
"Once the drone has identified the target and the operator has confirmed it, it is then able to strike autonomously, even if communication is lost, i.e., apparently, a homing system is used at the final part of the flight.
The German publication also states that the range of this kamikaze drone is allegedly four times longer than that of typical Ukrainian counterparts."
Darth on point as usual!
outright victory is not necessarily the Goal. Escalation avoidance has frustratingly been the number 1 priority of the western allies since this war began. However It has to be demonstrated that starting wars of aggression on the European continent in the 21st century is a futile and extremely painful exercise. If this fails to deter wars of aggression then clearly Europe needs to shift towards a permanent war type of economy which is something that no one wants.
Approaching it from Trump's perspective, his concern seems to be more on China, Middle East, Iran. Well, even within that, approached from that view a strong Ukraine is to be preferred.
A Russia dominant over a prostate Ukraine is in a better position to help China, Iran, etc in any other conflict.
It's without question that Russian intelligence have something on Trump himself or his absolute bell end son, it's the only logical explanation for the fawning and the sheer level of subservience.
I guess this is how Russia retaliates and escalates the recent escalation of Ukraine allowed to use ATACMS in Kursk.
Some would have you believe nuke's would fly. In reality sub sea cables are targeted instead.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Technology/wireStory/data-cable-baltic-sea-finland-germany-broken-cause-115963143
Nations don't have friends unfortunately, what they do have is strategic interests. Ukraine is of no strategic interest to Washington and even less now with Trump around the corner. If should be an absolute strategic interest to Europe which is why i find it baffling our response to this.
The causes of the war? Do you mean Russia's desire to dominate and plunder Ukraine, steal its resources and reduce it to a vassal state like Belarus?
They are the causes of the war.
Anything drivel about fear of NATO is just "Russian fantasising" for propaganda purposes. Russia already signed an agreement with NATO, under which Ukraine can join NATO. In that agreement, NATO made declarations which it has honoured so far with regard to permanent stationing of forces, nuclear weapons etc in countries freed from the yoke of the USSR. If Russia has any real concern about a threat from NATO, it would not have stripped its forces from NATO borders to send to Ukraine.
How do you address those or do you just implicitly accept Russia's word in everything? Does that make you a "friend of Russia" by your own prejudicial wording? Or is this just an instinctive blame the West rather than hold Russia to any kind of standard in morality, war crimes, diplomacy etc?
Ukraine fights because they see it better to fight today with weapons in hand, that to fight a re-armed Russia tomorrow alone, and leave more of their people subject to atrocities like Bucha, to rape and execution.
Where are your condemnations of Russia's breaches of previous negotiated agreements, if you value negotiations so much? Where are your condemnations that Russia is waging an illegal war of aggression, and conducting that with war crimes against civilians? Ukraine fights on because nobody trusts Russia to engage in good faith negotiations and honour any agreement signed.
Well, the "friends of Ukraine" need to be honest with the Ukrainians. They wont fight Russia for Ukraine. They cant replace the losses Ukraine is suffering. They cant provide enough weapons to Ukraine. They cant prevent Ukraine's power being knocked out. Even economic support is dubious given the troubles in Germany.
The "friends of Ukraine" have no realistic plan that can change the direction of the conflict. All they can do is try sabotage any effort at negotiations, as they have done for years. Over which time Ukraine's situation has gotten worse and worse. But still the "friends of Ukraine" insist no negotiations. Fight on to the last Ukrainian.
As for Peskov - obviously freezing the conflict is unacceptable to the Russians. Any talk of trying to negotiate a freeze is purely NATO fantasising. Actual negotiations will need to address the causes of the conflict.
I get the impression that the actual military theatre will become secondary as we move into 2025 (and the Trump presidency). The real impetus will come from whatever external leverage is exercised upon the parties.
The EU is really going to have to show some courage and unity - as we already know that Trump sees no strategic imperative for the US in Ukraine (he's wrong, but that's the position he will take).
Time for South Korea to get the finger out too.
Accusing anyone who looks at this war objectively wrt the position on the battlefield as "pro-Russian" is absurd and got tiresome ages a go.
If Ukraine was blitzing the battlefield it would be being shouted about from the rooftops. Unfortunately there is nothing to shout about because we haven't been in that situation in such a long time.
Maybe it will change again but so long as Russia makes gains you can't expect others to just ignore it.
There's definitely an element of pro-Russian trollery at play.
But the reality is that unconditional victory is not possible for either side and the eventual settlement is going to fall somewhere in the gray zone in between outright Russian annexation and Ukrainian recapture of all their sovereign territory. What shape that will take - I have no idea.
Indeed, it's grim at this stage that these individuals still persist.
"I just want peace" "I just want this to end"
Also here's countless comments attempting to shift blame away from Putin's invasion, supporting his disinfo and concern-trolling support for Ukraine.
Anyone who continues to insist Ukraine should "settle" for peace and the west should stop supporting Ukraine is either trolling, a paid poster or inherently evil.
The only response has been vague threat both by “Friends of Putin” in this thread and Russian newspapers as reported here
along the lines of “it be a pity if we armed the Houtis some more and they struck an aircraft carrier”
Which is hilarious as Fox News (which we know Trump not only watches but picks his cabinet from) would go absolutely ape **** drawing up lists of countries to invade
And remembering the last time Russians tried attacking Americans in Syria only to be wiped out like rats
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham
Let's hope Le Figaro is wrong. Hard to believe this cowardness from the EU countries, really pathetic.
Seems the use of the American missiles is only for the Kursk region. Le Figaro has removed it's report claiming the UK and France had given the go-ahead on Storm Shadow/SCALP missile use. This doesn't seem to have been accurate but maybe there'll be more on this later.
We know what you mean.
You mean you love Putin and Ukraine should just surrender.
FFS the little coward has had 50 red lines by now and done nothing when all were broken.
”Time will tell”
Expect new daily meatball production records
