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Disputing a BER assessment

loco_scolo

Long story short:

The assessor issued a C3 when we were aiming for a B3. He assured us he would request a Builders signoff of works if it would be helpful to the assessment, however he failed to do this and just issued a C3. We're now having enormous difficulty getting this reassessed and I don't know what to do.

Long story long:

I recently completed a full renovation of our house, a 1900 red brick end terrace in Dublin. We completely gutted the house and installed extensive dry lining (minimum 50-75mm insulated plasterboards) on the walls and minimum 75-100mm (insulated plasterboards/ Kingspan) in all ceilings.

Works were mostly done with family help over 2years, rather than one big job with a contractor. Our assessor came and did extensive visual checks behind plug sockets and spot lights, we provided detailed pictures showing progression of works, and provided receipts for all materials. The guy absolutely reassured us he would request a Builders Report if it was helpful to the assessment. However he failed to do this and issued us a C3.

When we challenged this (via our estate agent, who recommended the guy), the assessor offered to update it with our Builders signoff (which we now have), but we do not trust this guy so we declined.

A load of crap later, it seems that no assessor is willing to reassess it for fear of an SEAI audit. I contacted SEAI and they basically told me tough ****, not our problem, we can provide details for other assessors if you want.

PLEASE HELP OR ADVISE!!!!

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sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058373717/disputing-a-ber-assessment

who was the "builder" in the builders report?

youve said you didnt have a contractor.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721255#Comment_122721255

By "contractor", I mean a company who come in and project manage the entire project from start to finish, in a set timeframe, and charge an arm and a leg for it.

I project managed the works myself, with family help and other 'fully qualified' laborers, as and when necessary. Works were done to a very high standard over 3years. What are you insinuating?

I'm from a family of tradesmen. Father was a builder and plasterer for 10years, then a plumber for 40years. Both of my brothers are plumbers / builders who have build their own houses. My sister's husband is a carpenter and roofer.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721539#Comment_122721539

That doesnt make sense. You hired a company to project manage and then say you project managed the job yourself.

It sounds like you are saying your family done the job not a contractor. If this is the case how do you expect builders sign off?

Can you clarify?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721563#Comment_122721563

I did NOT hire a contractor or a company to do the entire A to Z of works - I have been very clear that I did NOT do this. Most people do not live in Derek Bannons renovation world where 3-400k of money can be plucked from nowhere.

I project managed the works myself over a 3 year period. Most of the work I personally did was demolishing dry walls, filling skips, organizing labor, ordering and collecting materials, landscaping gardens, and helping my "fully qualified and skilled" family members who are, quite literally, full-time tradesmen and builders. They are fully qualified and registered tradesmen and are 100% allowed to sign off on works they did to assist a BER assessment.

I'm not sure what you don't understand about this?

Smee_Again

Did you communicate with the BER assessor in a similar tone?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722368#Comment_122722368

I do not appreciate the accusations being made against me. The full works carried out were by skilled laborers to a very high standard.

The main issue here is the assessor came and assured me if a Builders Report would assist the assessment, then he would let me know before issuing the Cert. He didn't do this and issued the Cert anyway. Despite substantial insulation installed in every external wall, ceiling and roof, he applied default values to these, which are based on the age of the house. The report basically assumes there is no insulation in most of the walls or ceiling.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722346#Comment_122722346

Read what you posted again - What you wrote is not making sense. It sounds like you dont have builders sign off as you used family members to do the majority of the work, so no nobody could sign off on the work as nobody had overall responsibility for the job - there lies your problem. You should have had an architect, engineer or contractor engaged in the project for sign off of the work.

People are trying to help you!!! Explain yourself clearly.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722402#Comment_122722402

There hasn't been any accusations, just people trying to help by asking clarifying questions.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721539#Comment_122721539

jesus hang on, im not insinuating anything here.

it is a very pertinent question. You say you didnt engage a builder (contractor) yet you now have a "builders report" so i was asking who was the "builder" in this situation. You actually still haven't answered that question? I find that confusing.

every homeowner should be directed here before having a BER done after carrying out renovation works.

BER-Homeowner-Checklist.pdf

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722368#Comment_122722368

haha, I was thinking this myself. I’m very confused and if someone spoke to me in the tone of the OP I wouldn’t be trying to help them untangle a mess of their own making.

as for “fully qualified and skilled" family members who are, quite literally, full-time tradesmen and builders” wtf does that mean??

Penn

Honestly, you're going to be very hard-pushed to find a BER Assessor who will revise a BER result someone else has recently done, and particularly if the Builder's Report is based on self-certification (before you fly off the handle, I'm not insinuating anything or calling into question the qualifications and experience of you or your family, I'm simply stating what other BER Assessors are going to be taking into consideration).

Depending on how good you left things with the initial BER Assessor, your best bet is to go back to him and ask him nicely if he can update the BER based on your report which includes every receipt or similar that you can provide, and if you're lucky and nice, he might still be willing to do it.

mickdw

If he has taken random values for insulation based on structure age, any new BER will have a significant upgrade and as such, I'd imagine if you left it a year or so, you might get it easier to obtain a new BER. In that time, you could get your ducks in a row. Get an Engineer to inspect works and photos and receipts and ask if they will issue Certification as to the upgrade works as installed.

You should also be able to work with assessor and see what is needed if current works (fully accounted for ) didn't get you to.the b3 that you need.

Did you have an energy report done in advance to guide you?

Calahonda52

Let's be crystal about this loco tantrum.

Receipts don't cut it.

You need very clear invoices and signed delivery notes showing the delivery address, the quantity of material delivered and sufficient tech info: (thickness and lambda value) to allow a U value be calculated.

It appears you had no builder, it was a family self build.

The quality of the work is irrelevant, independently sourced documentary evidence is what is required to support U value calcs for the building fabric

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722605#Comment_122722605

Thanks a million for this response. I had the BER Advisory Report and Engineer Assessment from when I bought the house. I didn't have a specific one done prior to renovation works.

Here's what the assessor received:

Receipts for all materials. The receipts with the biggest spend were delivered to the house, so had the address on the receipt. The assessor took pictures of all of these.
Extensive pictures showing the full progression of works from start to finish. I organized these in a room by room layout, printed on A4 and gave the assessor a copy.
I opened plug sockets in every room and removed spot lights, so the assessor could see the insulation directly, and confirm what was in the pictures.
The assessor explained to me that a Builders Report was preferred, but he did not insist on this. I made it clear to him I could get one, and he assured me he would let me know if one was needed.

Based on the comments he made during the visit, it sounded like he had enough evidence to make a fair assessment. He also assured me if the Report was helpful, he would request it prior to issuing the Cert. However, according to the Data File I received from SEAI, extensive areas were left with "default values" or in other words "without any insulation" and a C3 was issued. Specifically the walls and roofs were labeled as 'poor'.

I rang him after seeing the C3 and was obviously very upset, but he basically didn't care. My estate agent advised to use another assessor, however it took 5 weeks for him to finally call. He advised to wait and see if a sale was falling through before he'd do a reassessment, which was extremely unhelpful after waiting 5 weeks for him to call.

After this, I emailed the original assessor and provided him with the Builders Report and asked him very nicely to update the assessment, but unfortunately I still haven't heard from him.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722694#Comment_122722694

Apologies if I'm getting upset - this has been dragging on for almost 2 months now and it is incredibly frustrating and upsetting.

As I mentioned in my previous comment just now, I did provide receipts (with delivery address on them). I also provided detailed pictures showing progression of works and the assessor had access to plugs and spot lights in every room. By his own admission, he did not account for insulation in most of the ceiling and used default values (for a 1900 build) in the walls, despite personally inspecting that insulation.

Genuine question - what are you defining as a builder? According to SEAI, a qualified and registered tradesman can sign off on the works. One of my brothers did 100% of insulation works. He is the one who provided the Report. Despite me project managing, I was in constant communication with my brother and he advised me the entire way through. I don't see anything illegitimate about this or the Report he has provided.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722536#Comment_122722536

Thanks for your response. Yes, this is why I'm so frustrated. No other assessor wants to touch this. My biggest frustration is that the original assessor assured me he'd request the Report if the self certification wasn't sufficient.

Based on the advice of my estate agent, I tried another assessor but he took 5 weeks to call out, only to tell me he won't do it. Other than the first follow up call I had with the original assessor, where I was obviously upset, I did not speak with him since. On Friday I went back to the original assessor and asked him very nicely to update it. Unfortunately he hasn't responded.

JVince

see if any similar houses in the area were recently upgraded and see what rating they got. The ask them for the assessors details and ask that assessor to do yours.

Maybe in the meantime do some small changes that don't cost much but which could be used as an excuse for a new rating

mickdw

Reading the whole thread it appears to be a poor enough performance from.the assessor but I do know they get haunted by audits and get penalty points etc so need everything nailed down to cover themselves.

Get an Engineer to Certify details and materials based on a full inspection of what is installed and attach photos and invoices.

If the works are suitably Certified, you.will find an assessor somewhere to do it.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723123#Comment_122723123

Thanks for your message. Despite my frustration coming out in some responses, I think the assessor has put me in a really difficult position. He should have strongly advised me from day 1 to get the Report signoff. Having learned (now) about the assessment process, I absolutely appreciate the detail they need and why the Report is preferred.

After contacting SEAI, my brother prepared the Report based on the exact guidelines they advised. I sent them this Report and asked them to do a review/audit/reassessment. Their exact response was as follows:

BER Assessors are not employees of SEAI and manage their own workloads, we cannot direct an assessor to carry out an assessment. We would advise you a number of assessors in your area and compare prices and availability.