Please use this thread to continue discussing the war in Ukraine.
All mod instructions from the previous thread remain in force here
Original thread:
You claim to know little about Ukraine/Russia, yet you are producing the same script we've all seen here before many times.
This propaganda is so well known we have a bingo card for it and you're hitting them all one by one.
Anyway, here's yet another brief explainer.
Mearsheimer
Mearsheimer has highly controversial views, including pro-Russian, which have been widely criticised and debunked, for example:
https://euideas.eui.eu/2022/07/11/john-mearsheimers-lecture-on-ukraine-why-he-is-wrong-and-what-are-the-consequences/
Coup
There was no "coup" in 2014. Yanukovych, the Ukrainian leader, was elected on a pro-EU ticket. He raised a lot of red flags with his corruption but the last straw came when he u-turned on a pro-EU decision sending hundreds of thousands of protesters into the streets. He ordered his forces to shoot them resulting in deaths. Later he fled, the Ukrainian parliament removed him, and he was discovered to have been obscenely corrupt.
https://www.voanews.com/a/ukrainian-maidan-was-not-a-coup/6741774.html
Corruption
Ukraine has indeed had issues with corruption, but they are making systematic efforts to tackle it. Russia in contrast is highly corrupt and makes no effort.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq55rpqlp31o
Cherry-picking atrocities and incidents from the invasion.
Apart from some isolated incidents, Ukrainian forces have been highly disciplined and take extreme lengths to avoid civilian casualties and incidents. They treat Russian POWs well.
In contrast Russian forces systematically target civilians, and civilian infrastructure such as hospitals and schools. There are thousands of reports of torture and murder of civilians, as well as systematic abuse, torture and murder of Ukrainian POWs.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/russians-committing-rape-widespread-torture-ukrainians-report-finds/story?id=103465772
Nazi's
Ukraine, like every country, including Russia has a far right contingent. As mentioned, the far right received only a few percent of the vote in the election in Ukraine. Russia uses a mixture of propaganda and misinformation in order to amplify it to an extreme level. The equivalent of claiming that all of Ireland is comprised of "IRA terrorists".
https://www.factcheck.org/2022/03/the-facts-on-de-nazifying-ukraine/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-5y1BhC-ARIsAAM_oKkopQIUo-6J60Iq_zelKdcv_ZqRZ2STR-5O_ZqWJY-MrNvumeCdvGkaAl-zEALw_wcB
Russian democracy.
In the nineties Russia briefly flirted with democracy, however since Putin got into power, freedoms have eroded and the country has gone from an autocracy to a dictatorship. Real opposition are threatened, put under house arrest, detained, poisoned or murdered. People who protest now, even in minor ways, can be imprisoned for years. He continues to operate behind a facade of democracy. He does enjoy a core of support in Russia but it's impossible to gauge how truly popular he is, not that it's relevant as he has cemented absolute power.
"Both sides"
Already explained. Note how you ignored the point and repeated the same blind argument.
"I just want the war to end"
Putin can end the war at any time by simply turning around. Appeasers and anti-Western individuals want the war to "end" by rewarding Putin's invasion with land.
And finally
"I don't know much about Russia or Ukraine" and "I just came across this today"
Certain individuals claim to know very little about the situation, yet by coincidence they are armed with the same preset links and tropes you've been using. We see this a lot among revisionists and people with set world views. To use an analogy it's the equivalent of someone claiming "not to know much" about the Holocaust, yet using a preset group of links and talking points only used by deniers.
It's an instant red flag.
If the fact that two and a half years later Ukraine are still putting up a valiant defence is "not working out" for them, then how is it working out for Russia:
So all things being considered, Ukraine are in better shape than Russia. Russia might be taking the odd town on the battlefield at an enormous cost, but any hopes they had of leading the multipolar world are now gone. That is not to say that we aren't heading towards if not already in a multi polar world, it's just that Russia will not be one of those poles.
As Mike Godwin (of Godwins Law fame) astutely said : Drawing Bayesian inferences after extensive sampling, I've determined that it's 99-percent certain that anyone who uses "woke" as pejorative will turn out to be a fuckhead. Please don't blame me for pointing this out--it's just science.
Putin seems to be genuinely popular according to serious commentators but maybe the elections are rigged as people claim here.
"Elections"
The Mearsheimer guff has been discredited multiple times on this thread. You haven't engaged with any of the rebuttals of it. At this stage he is lock stock and barrel a mouthpiece of Russian propaganda. Here is a rebuittal of what he gets wrong: Will you read the post, or will you continue to trot out the transparent "I don't know anything" tactic so you can continue repeating the same Russian lies?
perhaps the most glaring omission in Mearsheimer’s theory of the war is the role of Ukrainians themselves in determining the country’s future. https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/10/john-mearsheimers-incorrect-views-on-everything
These are the same points you have on repeat since 2022.
The article you link about Ukraine and corruption dates from 2015. At the same time, you provide zero corresponding article for corruption in Russia. Do you care about corruption or not? Obviously not, or you would have looked for such information, or some more recent information. And you have in fact already (see post below) been provided more up to date info. Yet you still go back to 2015.Proof positive your posts are dishonest bad faith arguments.
These memory holes and feigned ignorance is a deliberate strategy for you to continue repeating the same out of date information, the same discredited sources. All the while continuing to repeat disingenuous lines like "Overall, I know very little about Russia or Ukraine." All your are "qualified to say" is to "just ask questions". Why are you asking the questions then? Qualified by whom?
Faux concern about Nazis, while ignoring anything to do with Russian use of Wagner Nazi mercenary scum. Drivel about Banderas, ignoring actual atrocities being committed by Nazis doing Russia's dirty work in Ukraine.
You dropped the same talking points last month, multiple posters rebutted them, you ignore the rebuttals and repeat them again and again.
Here's one example. A quick scan by anyone of the thread would find dozens of such examples.
That is some pile of manure you've been posting. You need to have a long hard look at your life if you can't decipher who the bad guys in this is.
”Mearsheimer”
Just came across this today.
An opinion shared by Farik, trainer and veteran: " Not everyone is cut out for combat ," he insists, playing with his bayonet, " why make people fight who don't want to? " The " Chemist " says he has accepted his condition. Today, it is not death that frightens him, but trauma: " I want to be able to live a normal life afterwards ," he concludes. He, Oleg and their comrades will have to face the Russians for the first time before the end of July.
An opinion shared by Farik, trainer and veteran: " Not everyone is cut out for combat ," he insists, playing with his bayonet, " why make people fight who don't want to? "
The " Chemist " says he has accepted his condition. Today, it is not death that frightens him, but trauma: " I want to be able to live a normal life afterwards ," he concludes. He, Oleg and their comrades will have to face the Russians for the first time before the end of July.
I'm not sure what the point is in throwing Ukrainian postmen the military regards as useless onto the frontline. Even at this point many lives might be saved through diplomacy or at least that is my view.
The drinking water trucked into Chelyabinsk after a dam broke due to most likely maintenance neglected and heavy rains.
Probably a plot to kill Putin
The Americans must have pointed out that like Hitler at end of WW2 he is more useful alive as he just keeps making dumb decisions
Let us hope this "sequel" evolves into a very long-running "franchise"!
What do folks think the mystery plot was where the Kremlin phoned the US and the US told Ukraine to desist?
Putin apparently likes her and forced her to stay in
Dictatorships have incredible capital and monetary controls but even those are being exhausted, she's either committing suicide by window or she's a very brave lady
Elvira was going to leave the country when Putin took his boys army across into Ukraine. She knew they were done for by the figures.
Meanwhile Sabine Higgins on the end of the ship there saluting Putin.
You mean like you just did?
But when you came into the thread first a few months back you were just asking questions? Trying to understand the situation? And we're supposed to believe this fiction of you having a very vocal argument about the war way back in 2022? Did you develop amnesia in the meantime?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you just made all of that up.
'Ukrainian regime' - this is the easiest how to identify a pro-putin retard. they are trying very hard to camouflage themselves as innocent 'just-asking-questions' turd, but sooner rather than later 'Ukrainian regime' has to be mentioned and cover is blown.
She might want to avoid windows now, surprisingly direct for such a senior official
Meanwhile Russian Navy reinventing the Nazi salute now
How dare Ukraine for wanting to be... Ukraine.
I think Russia/USSR is 2nd or 3rd on the all time medal table. The Olympics is definitely a big deal in Russia. Those individual athletes should have been banned as well. None of this neutral flag BS.
Complaints were lodged and ignored by French and IOC as most of these “neutral” Russian athletes have publicly posted on social media and Russian tv in support of war, often smiling while at sporting events with the Zwastika in the background
Was discussed here couple days ago
Anyways Russian summer offensive has officially failed, probably be discussed in depth on todays podcast episode
Also, there are athletes from Russia and Belarus competing, under neutral flag, no team events. Ukraine is there as a full member, competing in team events. I think for sure there would normally be a significant amount of interest in Russia for the Olympic sports.
Bit of a broad statement there chief - "Most people have zero interest".
Perhaps in your social circles there may not be must interest but certainly in mine and many others not just here but world wide the Olympics garners huge interest, especially the athletics phase which starts in the next few days.
You could have just wrote “Russian” in short 🤣
There was no coup. Thats a Russian lie.
Anybody who at this stage doesnt know is worse between Russia who illegally invaded Ukraine and Ukraine the victims is just putting forward a bad faith argument or is entierely duped by Russia lies.
Multiple posters have engaged with your previous posts.
You run away from the posts explaining this to you, don't engage with the points or questions put to you, disappear then return with more feigned ignorance or feigned playing the victim. Rinse and repeat. Previous posts gone into a memory hole.
Those are not the actions of someone genuinely here to discuss and open to information from other posters.
The views you have expressed remarkably align with Russian social media propaganda cues. W
But hey every time you hit and run with these posts about a half dozen posts appear detailing how Russia is in the wrong, their invasion is illegal as is how they fight the war with war crimes and atrocities. How they employ Nazi mercenary scum to do their dirty work - They are called Wagner group. Don't pretend you don't know any of the above or it hasnt already been put to you on the thread - you aren't fooling anyone.
Keep up the good work.
Uhh no..... your view in this is as important as your feelings regarding the subject.... Completely irrelevant
To correct the obvious:
It hasn't "worked out" for Ukraine? This isn't some territorial spat. Putin launched a full-scale invasion in Feb 2022 to take the entire country as part of his imperialist vision. No one wants to invade nuclear armed Russia.
Unable to see the difference between a democratic country in Europe and the dictatorship that is attempting to invade it? It should be obvious.
Incapable of diplomacy? For years Europe has appeased and attempted diplomacy with Putin while he has conducted only increasing hybrid warfare against the continent, poisoned individuals on European soil with WMD, annexed territory, launched a proxy invasion, killed and attempted to kill domestic and foreign politicians.
»Hopefully I've expressed my views in a palatable and correct manner.
You've presented a familiar collection of falsehoods and distortions designed to shift blame away from Putin
There are a huge range of quality sources, resources and tools available online (in-depth analysis and reports, OSINT, online encyclopedias, chatgpt, etc) where you can not just find real information but corroborate it. There's really no excuse.
Would you like to live under a putin regime?
Can you understand why a country would not want to live under such a regime?
I get you're trying to walk back your previous rhetoric to appear reasonable, but it's completely empty words, calling for peace without outlining a path towards peace means nothing to anyone and adds absolutely 0 to the discussion.
And you can't outline a path towards peace because you're philosophically aligned with putin and don't want to air that fact.
Except for the fact that its warcrime and genocide excusing horseshite. I too, can express nicely in nice flowery language why an entire nation should be eradicated. Doesn't make what I'm saying any less stupid or horrifying. I can even drag my imaginary neighbour into the discussion who is lovely and agrees with me.
You should, genuinely, be absolutely f***ing ashamed of yourself. Disgusting. Now go on. Tell me how rude I am and disappear for a few more weeks.
The greatest threat for Russia is the thought that they are not invincible. The last few days has shown it more and more. Now we have desert touregs even taking on and eliminating Russian mercenaries.
It was always just a country with a population of france and germany combined but somehow had this grip projected that it was the second country military wise after the US. Scales are now being removed to how vulnerable Putin's regime really is. The country is implementing more fascist racist rules every day. Interest rates are being put up by the central bank. Infrastructure is being neglected. Europeans see Russians as petty terrorists thanks to FSB targeting French trains. Not to mention the celebrity chef arrested. There's the arrest warrants issued by the Hague that even the Russian clergy were warning their financier oligarch not to get involved with the childrens minister as they see she will be arrested after the war delivered by her own people. It's on and on more.
And there's some still pretend in their own head that the last 10 years hasn't happened for themselves, those in and out of russia. It's all changed.
