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Standard of English writing in gaelscoil

taytay123

My child is in a gaelscoil - second class.

Her level of English and irish writing is shocking. She can hardly spell anything in either language. English reading is average despite me putting in time every day since senior infants into it. Maths is below average according to drumcondra tests.

I reckon the school don't care about the low standard of English reading as in their opinion Irish is the first language and you can learn to speak and read English in the world around you, doesn't matter if written English isnt great. I have been waiting and waiting for things to improve /catch up and they aren't....and I don't think they will. It has taken this long to dawn on me. I am so tired and frustrated at having to make her do extra English and maths on top of homework and getting nowhere.

What should I do. I've lost faith in the system.

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Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058357251/standard-of-english-writing-in-gaelscoil

Not clear if this is primary or secondary level gaelscoil? What age is she? If it's primary and she's 7 or 8, then plenty of time, relax. But reads more like second level if you're that worried about standard of writing, spelling and maths?

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058357251/standard-of-english-writing-in-gaelscoil

Is your child dyslexic?

I'd have been in the same boat as you, when child was in second class (in gaeilscoil) was brutal writer/ speller. Now, same child in secondary school - still has brutal writing, still cant spell - but does more than fine in exams. Results have been really good.

Also, you cant judge the school off your child alone - there could be 20 others kids in the class who write perfectly well for the level they are at.

Genuinely, dont overthink this one - its much more important that they enjoy school. I am going to put to you that in ten years time, you will regret getting so stressed over this.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122301675#Comment_122301675

Its clearly primary school, but I think I see the point you are making.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122301709#Comment_122301709

If the child is 7/8 and has good grasp of both English and Irish as spoken, I wouldn't be worried about level of spelling or reading (which are both related). That'll follow in time unless some other issues as you suggest. As for maths at that level, it's pretty basic concepts & arithmetic. Every child is different and picks up things/ takes an interest in them at different times. Comparisons with others in the class are of little use, once they are enjoying their time there.

Tombo2001

The bigger risk at this point is to the childs confidence in being labelled an 'underperforming' child and the pressure that comes with it - sitting down and making them read every single day? Making the child do extra homework over what they have? Age 8? Thats the first thing I'd be addressing.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122301703#Comment_122301703

…first thing that came to my mind, its possibly the first signs of the disability, i have it myself, but its very hard to say at that age for sure without assessments, which is bloody expensive, languages such as french and irish are a major problem for those of us with the disability, problems with maths potentially could be signs of dyscalculia, which is just another learning difficulty, i dont have this one, but its common enough

…but we could be grasping at straws here, the child may not have any of these issues at all, but it should be something to consider, particularly if it persists…..

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122301962#Comment_122301962

thats true - and whether its something you label or not - the child is not good at spelling/ writing…..doesnt make them thick, and doesnt make it a bad school.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122301987#Comment_122301987

ah shur my own spelling and writing is absolutely terrible, and probably getting worse with age, modern tech certainly isnt helping that, thankfully the child is young, and we have far greater understanding of these issues nowadays, i dont think id be overly concerned here, but can understand the parents concern, just something to be mindful of. the school system will always have short comings, but there is far better understanding within them of these issues

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058357251/standard-of-english-writing-in-gaelscoil

Have you discussed your worries with your child's teacher?

Danzy

The child's teacher is the first port of call.

All the supposition about the schol and how they view the standard of English is just in your mind.

I reckon... That's all a dangerous phrase.

The range across a class and across individuals in different years is quite immense.

Kaybaykwah

Nothing that text messaging her little friends won’t be able to cure, IMO.

Reati

IMO - It been a Gaelscoil has little to do with it.

Is your child otherwise happy, do they have friends, go to parties and have playdates?

Exams and scores are not critical at 8 years old unless you believe there is a underlying disability that needs addressing.

It feels you have some set bar you expect your child to be at, at this point? What is the measure you are using? Has a teacher flagged the child is not on the level expected at this time for either langauge?

taytay123

Yes the standard I have is my own ability to read and write at the same age. No one had to help me read because I could read any book that I wanted to. And no one had to help me with homework because I could write and spell and certainly after spending 6 hours at school each day I didn't need to do anything else to keep up with the curriculum.

I didn't go to a Gaelscoil. Many parents who went to a Gaelscoil themselves have told me the trade off of being to one is that English suffers.

taytay123

Of course I've spoken to the teacher. They have said they cannot provide resourcing. They spoke to me and gave me a long list of maths items to work on over the summer.

And the school and other parents have always said that parents must read with their children in their own time.

taytay123

The school themselves have said parents need to read regularly with their children.

Many parents do extra work with their children in order for them not to fall behind. This is common in gaelscoileanna.

And it is also common for learning difficulties to be missed. This school does have a resource department and they are slow to recommend that children leave but there are quite a few sad stories of children struggling for years without the school admitting to a problem and then the child leave and copes far better in an English speaking environment.

Another local Gaelscoil is much quicker to recommend that struggling children leave. Parents of children at that school have said that the resource department is virtually redundant as there are almost no children there with learning difficulties. To be honest although this seems harsh I think it fair in comparison to encouraging struggling children to stay and then falling miles behind.

To the person concerned about me labelling my child... I've never said anything to her about her abilities. She's aware because she can see other children in the class find their work easier. She has already observed and labeled herself..

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122302952#Comment_122302952

But you are a population sample of one - just because it was like that for you, its doesnt mean it will be like that for your child.

How would you feel if you saw a dad who had been a good footballer, getting all wound up because their kid is no good at football, getting them to go out and practice in the back garden every evening? Or giving out that the coaches at the club arent good enough. Same kid will be really good at other things though.

There is a fairly consistent, clear message in the responses here.

And by the way, no parents are getting kids to do homework over the summer. Folks correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that would be very very unusual.

taytay123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303015#Comment_122303015

I've no idea of the experience of the people giving these responses. There are loads of people who are really opinionated but won't admit to the failings of gaelscoileanna. ie that learning difficulties aren't spotted quickly enough, that they are filled with very academic children, that many parents do extra work with their children and most children with learning difficulties move elsewhere after a few years. That's my lived experience of sending my child to one. Early intervention makes a massive difference to a struggling reader.

Every child should be able to read and write.

Saying I am a sample size of one is ridiculous. I was on a par with my peers in my class. They could also for the most part read and write at the age of 9 and if they couldn't there was definitely an issue. The second class curriculum is not hard and if a child is very behind there is a problem.

taytay123

And I can assure you my child's school report recommended extra work over the summer.

[Deleted User]

It sounds like you're looking for a reason to move your child to an English speaking school, and that's okay.

Maybe you'd be happier, or think your child would do better, but it does sound like you are expecting a lot and applying a lot of pressure (on you both).

I remember being told to read with my child every day, and she went to an English speaking school.

taytay123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303103#Comment_122303103

It is so hard to move school. There is very little availability elsewhere and I have multiple children in the school. This is my most convenient school. It is the last thing I want to do. Another parent had to get a local politician involved in order to get an alternative school space for their child when learning difficulties became apparent.

I cannot tell because I don't have the experience to know whether or not she will be fine. But I don't want to disadvantage her education and make secondary school a misery for her.

I don't think it is pressure to expect that a child be taught well enough to read and write at an appropriate age. I think it should be the schools duty to inform the parents honestly about what is going on. They don't have enough resourcing and so they are passing the work onto the parents.

Tombo2001

Ah come on- you arrive on boards, ask a question and then when you dont like the answer you say you dont know if those people are informed….

Would you be saying that if they had supported your views?

This is the parenting forum. We all have kids. I have a dyslexic child.

Lots of parents move their kids away from gaeilscoileanna for the reasons you describe. In my kids classes, it would have been maybe 3 or 4 kids in each of the classes over the eight years.

I will say this - my daughter has thrived academically since moving to an English speaking secondary school.

However, the gaeilscoil was brilliant for her socially so we were happy to keep her there.

Also, we did find a tutor who specialised in 1/1 dyslexia and was absolutely brilliant, a nun as it happens. She did that once a week in 5th and 6th.

taytay123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303161#Comment_122303161

Very glad to hear that your daughter has done well in secondary school. It's good to hear that.

It is not that I don't like the answer. It is that so many people speak glowingly about gaelscoileanna and don't own up to the inadequacies so I don't trust the system. We asked many people about gaelscoileanna including the principal before sending her there. People only told us positive things and how amazing it all is. No one ever told us that it is common for children with needs to leave. We were even told there would be no punishment system for speaking in English....this of course was untrue...all gaelscoileanna do and it was very intimidating for my child who did not aquire spoken language easily and still struggles with English grammar sometimes at the age of 9.

We were even told that children who go to gaelscoileanna have a better standard of English that their peers in English speaking schools...really untrue according parents I've spoken to who went to gaelscoileanna themselves.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303235#Comment_122303235

I hear what you are saying.

There is definitely a middle class thing with primary schools, and schools in general. Parents speak the same way Gaeilscoils as about Educate Togethers, and I'm not sure they are any great shakes either. But ultimately its where all the other middle class kids are going. And people talk about what a great school it is, rather than = well thats where all the other middle class kids are going, and thats why I want my kids to go there. When you are trying to get them in, its hard to see through the noise. Especially if there is a waiting list.

There probably a lot of truisms about Gaeilscoileanna - one of them is that they will pick up other languages easily. Thats not apparent to me, so far anyway.

I'll be honest, the biggest plus for me was that its mixed. Most of the local primaries werent. After that, our gaeilscoil is just a really nice school. The Irish, personally, I could take or leave. (Of course you cant say that down there 😅).

The other thing - if you in Dublin then you know teacher retention is a much bigger issue for the gaeilscoils.

taytay123

Yes there wasn't a waiting list at the time as it had just moved location (there is now) so it was easy to get into and I suppose that's part of the reason we were naive. And yes we have the issue of recruitment and all the teachers being so recently qualified and a large turnover of staff.

It is a nice school but the academics are making life hard at the moment, not sure why and I feel a bit isolated and unsure of what to do. My main fear is that I'm disadvantaging her by leaving her there.

Great to hear that your daughter had a good experience and thanks for sharing it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303084#Comment_122303084

I think you have unrealistic expectations. Yes it's good if every child/ person learns to read & write & spell but there is no predetermined age for this. It may have been one age for you but that's no guarantee for anyone else including your own children. Just encourage an interest in reading and the rest will follow in it's own good time.

We had a child with a certain learning issue (in a normal community school). Went in to see the year head, she listened and said they'd see what they could do………. but that it was an educational system, designed to cater for the average child and it was hard to tailor to the individual. The parent is still the primary educator of the child so up to parents to keep an eye on things, support and fill in the gaps.

taytay123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303832#Comment_122303832

It's interesting to hear your experience...thanks so much for sharing it. I guess if we were in an English speaking school I would agree with your principal. The Irish muddies the waters though. And the fact that children in gaelscoileanna tend to be very strong academically, and children with apparent needs in preschool like speech delays tend to be advised not to go to them, and then others leave as dyslexia etc becomes obvious. English is only taught for 30 minutes a day. And of course for some learning difficulties you get an Irish exemption. But the school is slow to advise people to leave as it prides itself on being more progressive. Other gaelscoileanna are quite quick to advise that children might do better in an English speaking school. I cannot tell if there is a learning difficulty or not and the school are not going to advise. I don't even think they know my child well enough to tell.

AnnieinDundrum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303087#Comment_122303087

I’d see that as a major warning about the school. Or perhaps a subtle warning from the school?

i have never had recommendations for extra work in holidays,
the only suggestions we were ever given was about reading and we asked about that. Son didn’t want to read books so we asked about it, teacher suggested graphic novels as a new medium for him. He took to it so much he started writing and drawing his own.

At that age we were still reading bed time stories. I was pretty sure that I was reading independently at that age but I had 4 younger siblings so bed time resources were stretched so I found my own entertainment. My kids were able to read school texts but I don’t think they were reading independently and fluently until later.

AnnieinDundrum

on the maths front I would look for some games type maths lessons. I’m not up to speed with these but we had a couple on a pc years ago which the kids loved. No fun in doing the same as school. We did the same later, my higher level Lc maths was rusty so I found other ways of learning the same stuff, actual books this time but different to the school texts.

Highlighter75

Irish is a zombie language. Why put your kids through the torture?

AnnieinDundrum

can you get the child assessed for dyslexia? That might be useful.