Please use this thread to continue discussing the war in Ukraine.
All mod instructions from the previous thread remain in force here
Original thread:
Rod Stewart was booed during a concert in Leipzig Germany when he showed support for Ukraine.
I find it hard to believe anything you post based on your persistent refusal to engage any direct questions.
For anyone new to this thread - this posters modus operandi is identical to countless others over the past couple of years… pop into the thread, politely explain your lack of knowledge, that you're just hear looking for information, firmly push back on any suggestion that Russia is the bad guy in this war, refuse to answer any direct questions, indulge in smoke and mirrors by posting random links suggesting bad things about Ukraine, raise a allegations from a well-worn playbook of Russian-favourable stories, and get snarky when the holes in those links/ allegations are raised.
Smoke and mirrors. "Forget about the illegal invasion, kidnapping of children and targeting of civilians, civilian infrastructure and energy facilities… look at these allegations that Ukraine is corrupt and has nazis fighting in its armed forces and was bombing its own people in Donbas".
If someone can't have a straightforward debate - and sure enough the poster will be along shortly to say he is answering questions but won't be able to show where - I don't think they're worth wasting any time engaging with and you'd have to question their motives.
Everyone who quotes Stepan Bandera as solely Nazi collaborator is purely Russian drivel and overlooks the part where he was actually sent to a concentration camp by the Nazi's for most of the second half of WW2.
Ukraine has a national identity history even more complex than the Irish/British 800 years complexities.
It also includes more than just 2 nations, which anyone looking from a western perspective seems to grab onto…
What Bandera and his party were trying to achieve at the time was an independent Ukraine… This included fighting Polish and Hungarians, along with Soviets (but also siding with them at one point). When WW2 broke out, it was in their interest of achieving an independent Ukraine to initially side with the Soviets to drive out Hungarians and Polish…. When the Soviets wanted to absorb Ukraine, it became Ukraine's interest to side with the Nazi's (which also solved their Polish/Hungarian issue also).
I don't agree with everything Bandera did, but to just blanket him as a Nazi is just plainly false.
I thought the latest round of military support was going to strengthen Ukraine but Zelensky is saying it’s still not enough- this doesn’t bode well for gaining additional volunteers to join the army.
If/when there’s a peace agreement, I don’t think those who hid or escaped conscription will be treated well by their fellow citizens- but in order to win over a fresh wave of sign ups, Zelensky may have to win over hearts and minds in a different way- certainly showing how guaranteed ongoing military aid and support from the west would be a good start
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz994d6vqe5o
His Channel is https://www.youtube.com/%40TheChieftainsHatch I beleive.
Nate
Just responding as others on this thread and assuming I'm on your ignore list.
Who f***ing cares what Russia accuse Ukraine of?
Anyone looking for a diplomatic end to the war would likely care.
As regards bucha, you are writing as I am defending what happened there which I am not.
I think you got confused, I gave an OSCE link which showed the ceasefire violations in Donetsk prior to the war. Here it is again.
https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512842
It seems you want to support Ukraine's elite as they funnel more men to their deaths in a fight against an enemy they cannot beat.
I know a friend who was very emotional on the topic with family in Ukraine but I think if you want the best for Ukraine, it's worth looking at it dispassionately.
I probably feel like you do about the Russians with respect to the Israelis but I am favour of a ceasefire not arming Hamas with patriot missiles or whatever. If anyone needs help it's the Palestinians.
Anyway, hope that answers your questions even though you have me on ignore 🫣
smoke and mirrors smoke and mirrors - "It seems you want to support Ukraine's elite as they funnel more men to their deaths in a fight against an enemy they cannot beat" - smoke and mirrors smoke and mirrors
What a strange - utterly bizarre - angle to take for someone 'just looking for information' and who honestly just wants peace and love.
The irony of someone pointing to 'elites' within Ukraine, in the context of a war between two nations where the other nation is one built exclusively on elites subjugating the proles and denying them any meaningful suite of civil liberties.
I think we can all see through your smoke and mirrors to who is really wanting to support elites here.
Interesting you avoided the Russian genocide bit. Well not really.
You're also not coming out and saying Russia did it, are you? Indeed you're pretty transparently avoiding it with weaselly maneuvering.
Violations on both sides and more to the point one casualty, a 60 odd year old woman who caught some shrapnel injuries, with details of her testimony, ambulance ride and treatment. How many are dead since Putin's invasion? How many died in that first week, month, year? How many died just yesterday? Because of the sheer scale of this madness few injuries and deaths are so well documented as that woman's, the vast majority anonymous save to their families. Madness that lays directly at the feet of those in the Kremlin.
Annnnd we have another bingo! moment, with yet another Kremlin spin line; "Ukraine's elites"© killing all those Ukrainians. Oh and they can't beat Mother Russia anyway. It's almost like they have a copypasta list of talking points.
I'll bet you won't talk about Russia's elites who've robbed they country and their people blind, whose sons and daughters are more likely to be found on the front row of Paris fashion week than on the frontlines of Ukraine, who have supported the near mafia czarist state and it's imperialism throughout.
Sooner or later what's left of the moth eaten veil falls away.
just overlooking the Russian elites who've sent circa half a million to their death, too.
”looking at it dispassionately”
Ok let’s do that
Russian oligarchs could have continued to light cigars with 100$ bills while having the best whiskey and hookers while their wifes and kids were sent on education/shopping trips out of Russia, while buying up wine growing villas in Italy and growing the yacht fleet
with the middle class continuing to visit Europe and ooh and aah about the culture and the normality of the place and availability of running water and toilets and washing machines
And the lower class continued to have jobs extracting gas and other natural resources in backarse of Siberia for export to Europe
And then Covid happened and Putin got brainwashed by the CIA to destroy Russia by starting a war they simply can not win (no matter how much they shift the goals of victory aims) with half a million dead, prisoners released and running amuck in the population, taxes going up, inflation at 80%, access to civilised world and products restricted or available only via dodgy black markets, all so the largest country in world gets a few hundred more square kilometres full of people who **** hate them
And now that CIA plant called Putin has turned the once mighty Russia into a colony of China
No future, no hope, just more Russian grade misery and bleakness
Leipzig was ex East Germany, and is still largely infested by russian scum today, just like Swords in Ireland. So no surprises there.
It seems you are casting aspersin on my character. I don't know why. AFAIK, there is no law against having an opinion in Ireland and I'm Irish.
There is also no law against having an opinion about russian shills who vomit up the same playbook time after time and quickly embarrass themselves.
I'm just expressing my opinion of your posts. I hope you've had all your questions answered by now? So, when is Putin calling an end to the bloodshed he is solely responsible for?
Last response. If you stick your arm into the tigers cage and it's bitten off is the tiger solely responsible?
That's how I look at it mostly.
Everything Putin does damages Russia
That analogy makes no rational sense. I think this is what you meant:
If I let my tiger loose in your house and you kill it while it attempts to eat you, you're at fault for defending yourself.
Bad analogy. Tigers work solely off instinct, whereas humans can reason.
Putin may look at Ukraine as essentially a province of Russia that he can use the military on if it's trying to 'secede', but this view certainly would not be reflected in international law.
So here's the basics, if you give parts of Ukraine to Russia then that will mean that they are free to restart invasions in the future cause they know there's no consequences. Any occupied territories will be subjected to genocide. The only real peace is Russia leaving the region and engaging in reparations, including war crime trials tbh. You seem to be trying to paint the two countries as bad as each other, Russia are the invader.... There was no justification for the invasion or the crimes that followed as a result.
Russia stuck a lot more than their arm into the Ukrainian tiger nest
Terrible analogy btw
so it's all Ukraines fault, right?! And from just questioning, to twice promissing to leave this thread, to full Kisilev/Solovyov parroting…you really can't help yourself, can you?
You are unable to see the forest on account of the trees,,, Putin illegally invaded the internationally recognised sovereign state of Ukraine. He did this to supposedly protect ethnic Russians from attacks by Ukrainians. These people had lived peacefully together even long independence, and would be still living peacefully together, had Putin not sent in his unmarked military with orders to attack the Ethnic Russians (as well as Ukrainians) and start a war. He then invaded on the pretext of "protecting" the ethnic Russian's. He did the same thing in Georgia.
Very true statement on the results of what Putin has done to Russia, it's hard to see how it can survive in its present form..
The Tiger in this case being Ukraine!
Thanks. That says it all about your view really. Pathetically victim blaming a nation for having the temerity to defend its sovereign rights (Donbas) and to chose which democracy (the EU) over autocracy (you guessed it).
It really - REALLY - is no more complicated than that. At least the Chinese can mount a semi-credible argument (which I reject) in relation to Taiwan… Putin's excuse is simply "I want it".
Maybe it's Vlad, who thought himself a tiger but is actually the circus master, about to get his arm torn off?
hehe
Any reports yet on what caused this?
Sabotage, or could it be a missile or something… it would be >100km from the Ukrainian border I'd imagine
»I'm not defending Russia
You are, you are parroting Russian propaganda under the guise of "just asking questions"
» The drive to move NATO east seems to have been a bad idea.
Let's take this example. NATO is a defensive organisation, which countries are free to apply to join. Sweden and Finland have recently joined because they fear hostile maneuvers from an increasingly aggressive Russia, fears which the events of 2014 and February 2022 have shown are very tangible.
Putin cannot dispute this. Therefore he spins it on it's head, projecting a narrative that Russia is "being surrounded" by this defensive alliance. No one, absolutely no one wants to invade nuclear armed Russia.
Yet here you are dropping these red flags into your posts left, right and center. It's an act we've seen in this thread many, many times.
Next up is the concern trolling about corruption in Ukraine, then more "both sides" false equivalence attempting to put the actions of the defenders on the same level as the invaders, then more tenuous insinuations that the US/West/Europe are to partially or fully to blame for Putin's decision to invade a country that is absolutely no threat to Russia..
And so on and so on.
Indeed, it is time consuming.
Whatever it was, it certainty went out with the proverbial BANG!!
Russian criticism of Ukraine's corruption is utterly laughable, given that half of their military equipment has been nicked.
