The World Cup is 3 years away, if you are just going to discuss the World Cup on every post its going to be a long long 3 years
😂
The whole internet read your deleted post. You cannot say you're arguing in good faith. Great to see how you feel when the mask drops though..
You probably could select with the World Cup in mind in the case of Healy and Murray - two bench players - with minimal impact on the chances of actually winning versus SA. Promote the third choices to the bench - Loughman/O'Toole at loosehead, and Casey at scrumhalf, and select a high potential emergent player who you project to be there or thereabouts as a potential first XXIII player come 2027 as the back-up, third choice option. They likely wouldn't actually see gametime, as it's only two matches, but could benefit from being brought into the set-up.
If selecting a high potential young player such as Paddy McCarthy or Matthew Devine would complicate things because they're expected to start back training ahead of next season sooner then you could just pick more established players as third choices - have Loughman and O'Toole as the reserves behind Porter, and perhaps Doak instead of Murray.
There's a good argument for it. You have to move on at some point.
I'd say the time to start moving on in terms of the selected starting 15 and bench will be directly after the New Zealand match in November. The teams facing Argentina and Fiji in particular should have some new blood in them. The point about giving Loughman and Casey game time off the bench instead of Healy and Murray is valid though, depends if the coaches see an equivalency in terms of ability and impact. If Healy and Murray offer a bit more impact off the bench then they hold their spots. I'd expect to see a few new faces being called into the training camp in October with a view to breaking into the 23 against Argentina or Fiji in particular.
The squad for the South Africa tour could be something like this: LP: Porter, Healy, Loughman HK: Sheehan, Kelleher, Herring TP: Furlong, Bealham, Jager/O'Toole TL: McCarthy, Ryan LL: Beirne, Ahern BF: O'Mahony, Baird OF: Van der Flier, Timoney/Connors N8: Doris, Conan SH: Gibson-Park, Murray, Casey OH: Crowley, Frawley, H Byrne/R Byrne LW: Lowe, Stockdale IC: Aki, McCloskey OC: Ringrose, Henshaw RW: Nash, Larmour FB: O'Brien Utility: Osborne I'd say Osborne will replace Ringrose if he doesn't show fitness by the end of this season. Otherwise he is either a utility back or next in line to be called up if needed. There's a possible toss-up between Stockdale and Larmour, if so I'd go with Larmour. I'd choose H Byrne, Timoney and Jager over R Byrne, Connors and O'Toole respectively. A close call is Tom Stewart losing out to Herring.
I can't see any surprises in the summer squad really. It's possibly a bit tough on Cian Prendergast if he doesn't get a spot but I think they'd prefer Ahern and Baird as lock/blind-side flanker cover, and Timoney as cover across all three positions in the back row.
Irish Rugby has a big problem at loosehead. Once you go past Porter the quality just isn't there.
None of the current starting or replacement props at the provinces are good enough to be relied upon. Of the lot Healy is still probably the best and he's clearly nearing the end of his career.
Might have to go to the newer generation of props like Milne of even Boyle before you get to someone who can possibly be trusted to bench ahead of Healy. And even then I have reservations about Milne.
Milne's so dodgy in the scrum though. Loughman's miles ahead of him in that regard.
Boyle is the perfect selection for the Emerging Ireland tour, it seems to me. It would leave Leinster working with Milne and McCarthy at the start of next season before the internationals filter back in, and the Ireland coaches get to integrate Boyle, who is currently behind Milne but probably a better prospect right now due to Milne's poor scrummaging.
We might see O'Toole get his first outing at LH.
Can't see Treadwell still on the cards - he's been very quiet this season, possibly leapfrogged by Sheridan at Ulster.
I'd say the time to start moving on in terms of the selected starting 15 and bench will be directly after the New Zealand match in November. The teams facing Argentina and Fiji in particular should have some new blood in them.
Nah because then we'll be told "we need to prepare for the 6N, so we can't experiment"
I agree. I suspect Razzmatazz will quietly shuffle his deck. No harm in given Casey/Bealham/Ahern the reins.
Murray and Healy should not be included on the tour. I would look at Loughman and Casey. I'd go as far as to start both of them in one of the tests.
POM is still a huge leadership presence for Munster, he's still the guy everyone looks to for on field decisions and is apparently still the most vocal voice behind the scenes. His performances this season have been more understated but I never felt as if he was playing poorly, certainly for Munster I wouldn't dream of playing a knockout game with Ahern ahead of him who's still learning at this level.
We have to move on from POM at some stage but think he'd leave a big leadership void at present. The hope was probably for Doris to advance his claim as a leader and captain but that aspect seemed to be heavily criticised by BOD this week so it would appear he's not yet ready.
+1
This stuff is just entirely in your head. It has already been highlighted that Ireland capped more new players in the last RWC cycle than SA but then the goalposts instantly shifted.
Not sure that proves anything on its own timoney gettin motm vs fiji and then getting thrown down a well looks great but aint it
Last time we played Fiji, three players made their debuts, JOB and Deegan got their second caps, Timoney got his third, even Baloucoune got a start and there were plenty more fringe guys involved
Nothing breeds resentment like success
Must every opposing opinion be resentment?
Does anyone have a list of the current first choice 23 (or some permutation of it) and the teams they made their debuts against?
I'm wondering did many come through gradually against the US, Fiji, Samoa or moreso 6N games and summer tours.
Edit: might as not be lazy and do it myself.
Porter - USA
Sheehan - Japan
Furlong - Wales (WC warm up)
Beirne - Australia summer tour
Ryan - USA / McCarthy Australia AI
POM - Italy 6N
VDF - England 6N
Doris - Scotland 6N
JGP - Italy 6N
Crowley - Fiji
Lowe - Wales COVID Cup
Aki - South Africa AI
Ringrose - Canada / Henshaw - USA
Hansen - Wales 6N
Keenan - Italy 6N
No, it can be dislike or Hate or Despise.
Group think or be accused of hating the national coach and team. Sad really.
..
List of internationals, with their debuts is here if someone fancied putting it together:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ireland_national_rugby_union_players
EDIT: just threw the 15 together, I think it's right:
Player
Debut
Tournament
1
Porter
USA
Summer
2
Sheehan
Japan
AI
3
Furlong
Wales
RWC Warm-UP
4
McCarthy
Australia
5
Beirne
6
POM
Italy
6N
7
VDF
England
8
Doris
Scotland
9
JGP
ANC
10
Crowley
Fiji
11
Lowe
12
Aki
South Africa
13
Henshaw
14
Hansen
15
Keenan
This post, before the edit reminded me of PJ Mara's “Uno duce, una voce”
Mod: warned
MOD: I have no idea what on earth this is, but cut it out.
There is an awful lot of childish nonsense going on here lately.
Is there any indication where Ireland will tour in summer 2025 during the Lions tour? Some Tests against Argentina, Fiji or Japan would would be a good challenge for an Irish side probably missing nearly all of their first XV.
Yeah those would make for a good challenge. You could do a tour of the islands and play Samoa, Tonga and Fiji.
If they go to Argentina I'd like to see someone like Chile or Uruguay get a game too.
Jimmy O'Brien has returned at just the right time for Ireland. He's one of Leinster's best performers in recent weeks and the ideal replacement for Keenan. He's probably faster than the latter as well so that gives a boost to our backline which isn't the quickest.
He’s looked electric since coming back. I don’t recall him being that fast before his injury. Always had him in the footballer mould aka Hansen with decent pace but great to see he’s able to hammer the gas down.
Great opportunity for him to put his hand up for the 15 jersey with Keenan out of the tour and Hansen looking like he’s struggling to get back to 100%. No need to rush him back for a 2 game summer tour although I’m sure he’ll want to get back playing so the season isn’t a complete write off for him.
JOB seems to have gotten faster. He's gassing defenders on the outside which we don't always see from Irish back three players.
Keenan is the best full back in the world. He's at least an 8/10 in every attribute you want from a 15. In terms of replacements, I think JOB is about the closest we can get to replicating what Keenan brings. Solid passing and kicking game, decent in the air and has speed to take on defenders. We'll lose a bit in line running ability and in defensive reads, but those are what sets Keenan apart from every other 15 in the world.
Some downright stupid comments from Damian de Allende to Rugbypass about SA's rivalry with Ireland. I dunno if they're doing this stuff to pump up the summer tour series, or what it is, but find some of his comments bizarre.
Talks about how Andy Farrell is English, so doesn't understand Irish history, and that impacts his ability to connect with the players.
He must have lived under a rock in his time in Ireland, because he also says he thinks Irish people aren't emotional and that impacts them in big moments.
He dramatically overplays the "hardship" angle the SA squad supposedly have too - unquestionably a couple of guys like Makazole Mapimpi the prime example came from nothing and are incredibly admirable, but huge swathes of them are Boer farmers who grew up with anyone's definition of privilege.
It's clear the media reaction after we beat them comfortably in 2017 still rankles them to a huge degree, and he obviously does have respect for some of the Irish players and aspects of our play, but some of his comments just show him to be incredibly uninformed IMO.
Jim Hamilton talks a lot of hypocritical shite too - constantly highlighting guys like James Lowe etc as not being Irish. He's an Englishman who played for Scotland, a team stuffed to the brim with imports.
The gushing praise in general for the Saffers and what they've achieved completely loses sight of how incredibly fortunate they've been along that journey:
In 2019, they lost their only meaningful pool game against NZ. They emerged from a group containing Italy, Namibia and Canada. Their path then to win the RWC saw them get past Japan, Wales (barely) and a spent English team.
In 2023 they lost their only meaningful pool game against us, and then robbed France in the QF with the benefit of an egregiously wrong late penalty (Kwagga Smith's midfield turnover), limped past a poor England side in the semis and then limped over the line 12-11 in the final against a NZ team who played 3/4 of the game with 14 men or less.
Obviously finals and tournaments are for winning, and history just remembers the victors, but the 2015 All Blacks they very much ain't.
They're also fairly consistently underwhelming outside of those two tournaments. They threw a mad hissy fit about the World Rugby team of the year having so few saffers.
I absolutely can't stand them as a team. This faux outrage bullshit clearly works for them to some degree but it makes them look like children.
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