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Application Refusal

JasonCee

After 7 months of waiting for the AGS to get back to me I finally received my final application letter today from my Superintendent telling me my application was refused for the cited reason.

"Concern over the amount of firearms already in the house and thus no sufficient reason to grant the license."

For context there are 3 shotguns and a rifle in the household already for well over a year with no issues whatsoever.

I have fully complied with everything asked of me only to be told this after all this time.

7 months of non stop phone calls, sit-down conversations with my FO and constant hassle all for nothing. I want to appeal but don't know how to go about it. Any advice as to how?

Sorry for the long post and thank you in advance.

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hiddenmongoose

Solicitor and a complaint to ombudsman regarding the amount of time taken for the refusal( as per grizzlys advice). Best few quid you will ever spend.

Croohur1

When you have young lads being shot dead in Dublin with an "AR-style rifle" (who knows what it actually was!), it seems cases like this become ever more ridiculous and pointless. I know its been said before, but its still very frustrating. Hopefully you can get it sorted Jason.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122100692#Comment_122100692

Do's not matter how many floors, only matters who has access. Safes can be in same room, but only matters as to who can open them.

JasonCee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090414#Comment_122090414

Meant to attach this to message above*

JasonCee

Split into 2 safes with his upstairs and mine downstairs.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090414#Comment_122090414

Security of access, according to what I've read here anyway, is not quoted in writing as a reason for refusal . What's on the letter is the reason and nothing else. The Super can't add other reasons later on. Also, it appears to not have been an issue with the previous successful application.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090414#Comment_122090414

I asked above also. As obviously my “no access” argument is undermined by one safe.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089539#Comment_122089539

I agree that’s that’s listed as the sole reason - from the context we have at least.

My approach was flipping that on its head. The sufficient reason is target shooting, legally that is the only reason required. By reiterating that, it weakens the refusal. Then pointing out firearms he doesn’t have access to or a right to use are of no consequence.

J.R.

At present, are all the guns stored in the one gun safe? - do you and your dad have access to all the guns in the one safe…and would this also be the case with the new rifle?

Rescueme0007

As already advocated, get onto a solicitor and initiate an appeal in the district court. The refusal reason stated seems weak and unsupportable. The deciding authority is on very poor grounds for the refusal.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088103#Comment_122088103

Something I actually realised reading your comment Mellor, that I missed first read of OP's post.
On the part:

"Concern over the amount of firearms already in the house and thus no sufficient reason to grant the license."

I would say that the sole reason the refusal is there is no sufficient reason because of the number of firearms in the house.
Not that they are 2 reasons, but the number of firearms in the household being the sub-reason if you will for the no sufficient reason, the latter being being the category of reason for refusal.

Just my reading of it and a possibly pedantic point I'm aware, but relevant since the refusal letter was kind enough(with kind having the loosest meaning here) to specify the exact(and only) point of sufficient reason the applicant lacks, which is "amount of firearms already in the house".
Often letters only specify the no sufficient reason, without expounding on the point, which I think here is in the applicant's favour.

Thinking about it slightly further @JasonCee, the security legislation for firearms even contradicts the refusal here, in roundabout sort of way, since by your specifying the number of firearms(presuming all non restricted) you would not even fall into the final category of security requirements as set out in legislation:
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/si/307/made/en/print

tonysopprano

You have 30 days to lodge an appeal, from notification of refusal. Bear this in mind.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058349872/application-refusal

Number of guns in the house is not a valid reason in itself. But "no sufficient reason" is stating something additional. I'd focus on address both in the appeal.

FWIW, there being "no issues after a year of 3 firearms" is not really a good justification to use imo. They are approved firearms, there being is no issues is expected. Trying to use that as an argument in your favour feeds into the idea that 3 firearms was already risky, and you've trialling it the risk like a provisional driver. Not the case.

In terms of firearms and the rifle already in the house. Where are they stored?
Is your shotgun in a separate case to your father's? Do you have access to the other shotgun and existing rifle?
That should be the basis of the appeal. That the existing rifles are legally store, that you don't have access, or an ability to use the rifle, and as such they are not a factor in the ownership, storage and use of your own rifle.

In terms of "no sufficient reason". I assume you are a member of a target club. Reiterate the that you are a target club member, attach your membership. Point out the the existing hunting rifle is not suitable for target shooting and you are not licensed to sue it in either case.

I would probably try to contact he FO with the above, advising them that a formal appeal is the next step.

Grizzly 45

Lawyer up! It's the only to deal with this kind of Super.Esp if it is Galway. Galway it seems gets all the "Good ol boys" who want to run their patch by their rules only when it comes to firearms. Unless you are living in a sink hole estate in Galway city next door to the most notorious gang famlies with a big sign over the house saying FREE GUNS HERE!That is the most weakest excuse for a refusal any Super can come up with and Esp taking seven months to make a decision when they have 90 days by law. I'd even suggest throwing in a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman too on this for what its worth.

It is really your only unfortunate option here,as there is no other options bar taking it to a dist court case and have a judge either uphold the decision,grant the liscense or kick it back for review to the super.

JasonCee

My shotgun application took 4 months and now 7 months on the rifle 😆

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086769#Comment_122086769

Ah interesting, haven't heard of many dumb licence decisions from there for a while but there it is.

In fact as far as speed goes they seem to be, based on the firearms certificate waiting times survey results, to be pretty good usually as speed goes with non restricted applications taking on average 2.3 months, and 5.2 out of 10 in terms of satisfaction with the district among licence holders.

Survey here if you'd like to take it, the more experience logged (good and bad) the clearer the picture of licencing:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304131/firearms-certificate-waiting-times-survey

JasonCee

Galway. J

otmmyboy2

I've got to ask, and no need to reply either on thread or via PM if you don't wish to, but what district(as in county) are you licencing in?
I know after the last reshuffle of AGS supers and chiefs there does seem to be a pervasive clampdown on licencing in certain counties.

JasonCee

I just find it strange seeing as there is no limit on how many firearms you can own if you can provide the necessary security measures, but the amount of firearms in the house is what concerned him.

Feels like a lazy decision.

keith s

You currently only have 1 firearm licensed (a shotgun).

And are applying for a 223 for target practice (I take it you are a member of a target club that can facilitate such).

That all makes sense, I don't see an issue with it, and hopefully will give the fourm members a good idea on a process of appeal. Although it may not seem like it, the refusal letter may help with the speed of an appeal (I think) as you already have it in writing.

JasonCee

I have also met all of the required security measures. (Monitored alarms, safes, trigger locks etc.)

JasonCee

1 of the aforementioned shotguns has been licensed to me for over a year now.

I rifle I was applying for is the same as my father's (.223) but for different reasons. He uses his for vermin control while mine would have been for target shooting.

keith s

Not to be nosey, but to ad a bit more context for the guys to help you.

Are you licensed on all 3 shotguns and the rifle (or someone else in the house)?

Is the new application for a firearm similar to one you are already licensed on (I'm think for the good reason part of the application)?