How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
I'm citing "old" releases because you made a reference to boom time figures in the public service and the boom ended in 2007.
Figures from the DPER state the following:
325,177 worked in the civil service, defence sector, eduction sector, health sector, justice sector, local authorities & NCSA in 2008.
377,310 worked in the same sectors in 2022.
An increase of 16%. . . . Still considerably less than the overall population increase during the same period of 21%.
https://databank.per.gov.ie/Public_Service_Numbers.aspx
And? That doesn't tell the half the story. According to data, primary and secondary school staff have gone from 41,033 and 33,074 to 56,990 and 39,143 respectively. Pretty substantial increases of 38% and 18%, given the population rose approximately 16% in that period.
If you were to read that you wouldn't think that there was an issue in education, however there is, a rather large one.
The junior cert results weren't released until the 18th of October 2023 because, in the State Examinations Commission own words, there was a "very significant examiner shortage". And this is despite pay being increased for examiners earlier in March 2023.
According to a survey of 1094 primary and special schools in October 2023 there was a shortfall of 809 posts, 72% of the schools that responded had been unable to fill all their vacancies, 1,202 additional long-term vacancies were anticipated in the following three months.
Also, the recent staffing numbers are inflated because there are more teachers than ever before on career leave. In early 2023, Department of Education figures showed that teachers on career leave had more than doubled over the last 10 years, with 1,535 teachers on a break in 2012/13 compared to 3,153 in 2022/23. There are also far more substitute teachers being used than ever before, with schools/department being forced to hire non qualified teachers too.
I could do this for nearly every sector:
Garda numbers have fallen since by 1,476 since 2008, a reduction garda numbers by 9.5%. This is offset somewhat by an increase in Garda civil service staff of 1,279. But there has been a net decrease in staff despite a rise in population. It's no wonder they're increasing the recruitment age to 50.
Do I need to say much about the Defence Forces? Numbers have dropped by 2,960 or 26% since 2008. They can only use two of their eight vessels due to manpower shortages.
Revenue staff numbers have fallen since 2008 levels, there's been a huge amount of retirements that aren't being replaced. Once again, this is despite Revenue's case base increasing massively with record receipts across all tax heads.
Groceries are still shooting up. Electricity costs remain much higher than they were even 12 months ago - note the utilities are being somewhat disingenuous in their price reduction announcements - while the standard rates have dropped x%, the discounts available off that rate remain far lower than before (i.e. 2 years ago most were advertising 30+% discounts off standard rates; ~15% is as good as it gets now).
Do you know how inflation is calculated?
My esb bill costs are starting to sharply come down. To me thats a decrease.
I don't think that would placate public sector workers. Cost of living isn't reducing (that would be deflation), the rate of increase is slowing down.
So with the cost of living finally coming down (electricity, groceries) will we be prepared to take 8.5%?
Very hard to use the cost of living as an excuse when its reducing.
Its more a case of someone not being able to admit when they've made a mistake.
For the avoidance of doubt, there are 388k public servants at end Q2 2023.
Source DPER Databank.
Commercial semi state bodies (ESB etc) are not included in this figure as they raise their own revenue rather rely on the Exchequer.
The comparable figure for 2008 is 291k.
If you start citing old CSO releases you don't understand and try to compare apples and oranges then you are going to be corrected.
It's always the case on this forum that when certain people are presented with factual information they go and invent their own facts to suit their argument.
There's 42k commercial semi state employees in the discontinued CSO series so not like for like.
You'd need to add whatever the equivalent figure is now to the 377k of our public servants paid from the Exchequer and covered by the pay agreements.
Could it be a discrepancy in FTE vs number of employees? That happens in our place quite a lot, sounds like we have loads of staff but when you look at the FTE number it is a lot lower.
From the CSO website:
"Overall employment in the Public Sector was 363,900 in September 2007"
https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2007/psempearn_q32007.pdf
365k?
Where are you getting that from? 325k in 2008 according to dpers databank.
By boom time I presume you mean 2007? The population of the state has increased by nearly 21% since then. In the same period the number of public servants has increased from 364,000 to 377,000, a 3.5% increase.
You'd swear an increase in population of 700k wouldnt need additional public services........we are far behind where we need to be with some sectors (not all) finding it difficult to attract and retain staff.
Do you have any idea about the increase in PS numbers in the last 10 years?
about 70k over boom time numbers at 385k.
You'd swear people were leaving their droves
The public service took massive pay cuts at the time… that still haven’t been fully reversed. …and those cuts were far higher than the rate of deflation.
Have you bothered to read the thread?
This has been addressed at least half a dozen times already.
That's an increase in living standards which shouldn't really be compared as an equivalent evil to a decrease in living standards as we experience right now
When there was effectively 0% inflation & payrises still arrived Does that also need to be compensated for ?
ISME issued a press release, when exactly were they asked?
What exactly are you saying RTE did wrong? Reporting on a press release? What exactly are you saying ISME did wrong? Comment on something that indirectly effects their members?
”information war”, “information control” - give it a rest. This isn’t the US primaries. You’re completely overblowing it. Do ye reckon we’re going on an all out strike?
I don't see public sector representatives being asked to comment on business practices and industrial actions.
Information control is critical before any strike. The public would play the key role here either ignoring us and allowing the government wait us out or making it an election issue where the government want a quick fix.
The unions and government will be using public mood to determine how far they can push. Pointless waiting for us to be on the picket to start that as the public will have their opinions formed before that point.
This is not rocket science here and the media tend to learn anti-union
No direct impact? Agreed. Indirect impact? Yes.
Theyre doing their job and reporting both sides of the discussion. You’re overstating the “information war”, we’re not on strike. They have not even issued a ballot.
He's commenting on something he literally has no say on and no direct impact on his members.
RTÉ may as well ask the UK version for all the relevance.
It's an information war being ramped up. Constant negative wording against the public unions will take its toll. It's a very basic yet critical tactic to control the narrative.
ISME will cry about anything that doesn't line their own pockets, whether it's minimum wage being increased or about the 'temporary' reduced VAT rate being reverted. And who knows how many of their members can't/won't even pay the tax they owe, look to the tax debt warehousing shambles. I'd pay ISME no heed.
As others have mentioned, for the vast majority of public/civil servants, more than half of any pay rise received won't even reach their bank accounts as it'll be taxed at the marginal rate and will be going straight back to the government. And the remainder, a large proportion anyway, will be spent in the economy.
The Government has no problem pissing billions in the wind when it comes to company supports. But when it comes to its employees, the people who provide the services that keep the country running, the Government shows nothing but disdain. Across the board, each service is facing a retention and recruitment crises, yet they offer 1.75% in 2024. Coupled with inflation rising again on the back of years of high inflation it's laughable really.
Look out for Helen McEntee, Norma Foley and Stephen Donnelly scratching their heads over the next year, saying we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas regarding staffing and service provision crises in their respective departments.
By the same metric, you also know this man is just doing his job and representing his members. His comments are in their interests and nobody else’s. You also know RTE are just doing their job and reporting on something the head of ISME said.
The head of ISME sways nobody imo.
Of course it means something. Employers and Unions know that much industrial action is won/lost in the court of public opinion. The mechanisms are already ramping up in favour of the employer here.
The union will have to weigh the public's view of increased/any industrial action, as the public support for unions shortens any action.
You know this
At the end of the day, if you’re Neil McDonnell you’re just doing your job and representing small businesses. If he said nothing, his members would complain.
Makes SFA difference to us really.
Yeah may as well ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses on their thoughts on the public sector pay deal.
And RTÉ will report on it, when its has zero relevance to anything
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