How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
If the gov have said that they have €1.8billion in next years budget for the pay deal, does that not mean that they are planning to accept 7% pay increase in 2024? And then different amounts for the following years?
Having more junior staff than senior staff isn't a problem unique to the Civil Service though.
Again I'm not saying COs shouldn't get more or yes amalgamate CO and EO or something, but it's not exactly a unique situation
Already posted this, but approx 32% of the entire civil service are at the CO grade.
There aren't enough senior level roles for everyone to be promoted too. Not everyone is going to end up as an AP.
Eventually they're going to have to look at amalgamating some of the admin grades.
It wouldn't be the first time its been done.
The vast vast majority do. Its a starter role. But its all oh think of the Cos on here. I do think the lower grades should get a higher increase but no point being disingenous either.
You spend one year on that point, that is how I count it.
At the risk of sounding like a Government shill, COs can and should apply for promotion to get more money too. And if they can't in their own area they need to be looking around.
They don't have to wait 10 years. The scale is pretty much an incentive to do that.
Again, I'd be I'm favour of the starting salary being higher too sure.
You also made the mistake of counting point one as one year of service. 🤫
As for CO and EO, new entrants (post 2011) skip points 4 and 8.
I was unaware of this.
But even so, the point being made and that still stands, is that it still takes a bloody long time to reach a half way decent wage at CO/EO level - and even AO's wont be living extravagently when they reach point 3.
Taking AO as an example...Point 3 doesn't take 3 years to reach, it takes 2 years. You start on Point 1, after one year you go to Point 2, after 2 years you go to Point 3.
So 2 years, not 3 years.
So for EO, it takes 3 years (P1 -> P2 -> P3 -> P5).
For CO it takes 10 years (P1 to P13 would be 12 years, but 2 points are skipped).
Shawki was right.
Deleted.
The salary scales from the Fórsa website.
CO - 13th Point
EO - 5th Point
AO - 3rd Point
To reach 40K
CO - 10 Years
EO - 3 Years
AO - 2 Years
I suppose I was refering to an earlier post of 40k being the low paid wage referenced.
But if you want to suggest that people taking up Clerical work in the CS are generally younger or doing it for family reasons you'd be right.
I am not sure how someone sitting at home on the dole unqualified for anything or qualified with a fluffy degree could expect to jump to a 50k or 40k a year job straight away.
There is a completely false narrative in this country that the dole is something that many aspire to. It's not an easy life and it's not great for the headspace from previous experience.
It takes 13 years for a CO to reach 40k, an EO takes 5 years and an AO, 3 years.
HAP by itself is often worth more than the basic social welfare rate (at least in Dublin) and there are also other benefits such as fuel allowance that bump it up another bit.
IME, the only people giving up the safety net of social welfare for a low starting rate are those still living at home, or those who have a high paid spouse and the plan is to apply to workshare in the CS because its family friendly.
40k is not low paid. Even by Irish standards.
Basic social welfare is around 12 k a year. The medical card doesn't have a value as such but would assume unless you are using it a lot and one would hope this isn't the case for anyone, it's a very small value. HAP is well and good but it comes with its Ts and C's.
Anyone who is on SW and wouldn't get off their hole for a 40k a year job would need their head examined.
A measure introduced that public servants were told was temporary.
Made permanent by Paschal Donohoe in 2018.
Pension Related Deductions are remaining, though I'm not sure that even the unions have noticed this!
I am not suggesting ts and cs are great at lower levels of the CS but that the reality is people aren't choosing to leave it for the exhuberance of the social welfare net. People are leaving for other professions no doubt but not to the lowest common denominator.
They may not be leaving it for the social welfare net.
But the other way around is certainly happening.
People are not giving up their social welfare entitlements to take up low paid roles that - all things considered including secondary benefits - don't pay them enough to live on, now, let alone waiting 10-15 years on a scale to get to a half-decent wage.
There are low paid people in Ireland (and by low paid I mean at €40K even) paying two grand rent a month as others get it fully paid in terms of HAP, JA and Medical Card from the State.
I don't think this is actually true however. It takes a certain type of idiot to decide that it's better for them to sit at home on 230 (or whatever it is these days) having to deal with DEASP in order to get on a housing list or get 'free'healthcare/travel etc while being harassed to try find a job etc while on the process of giving up a state job with a very clearly defined pay path with options for advancement.
It's not good for anyone involved to make this decision, least of all the person making it.
Your own words: "to bounce unions and their members into quick decisions to accepting any deal without ballots before Christmas."
You can't have it both ways.
And, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, many people across society (private & public) are beginning to look at their NET pay packets of working a full-time week and comparing it to the benefits gained by sitting at home all day and doing sod all and thinking to themselves "Why bother?"
This is definitely the case across many lower paid public sector positions.
The deal may not be wrapped up at Christmas because they're more or less starting at Christmas ffs. Look around you . . . decorations everywhere in the shops etc. .
I guess we will find out then, won't we? Was the PSC clause there when the INTO accepted a deal without consulting members? Did you ever consider that the clause was introduced for a reason.....?
The deal won't be wrapped up by Christmas. The deal will be put infront of members (whether ballot or consultation). I'll mark your post for January 1st to point out who was right.
The Government had the money to up baseline social welfare rates by 11.5% over 2 years (2022-2024 €208to €232) not counting all the extra lump sums and multiple xmas bonuses, the unions would want to be rejecting any notion of 5% over two/three years
One of the most important and largest unions, the INTO, have accepted deals they have balloted on and rejected in the past. Others have entered deals without ballots under the ICTU banner. There's no need to go and buy tin foil if you know what has happened in the past. It is also usually the case that a deal involving virtually all of the unions is wrapped up before the deadline is reached. Like on splitting up pay increases to be paid over a number of years rather than one lump sum. . . It would just help if you knew what you were posting about.
You must find the tin foil costs crippling.
The Unions won't and can't accept a deal without consulting/balloting members as per the guidelines set by the ICTU PSC. As such, there simply cannot be a deal before Christmas.
This deal won't be done until Feb/March/April of next year and likely the Government will backdate it to January. Its convenient for them as the attraction of backpay will make it more attractive to members who want help now.
The fact these deals take so long to negotiate is why I believe it will be a multiyear deal. Probably 3 with a review clause. With an election looming, theres no reason the Unions cannot negotiate a good deal for everyone. I don't understand people demanding information now, let the Unions do their job and everyone can discuss it when the proposal is close to being in front of us. Nothing is happening anytime soon on this.
The late start to these talks (which should have started in the summer) are an indication to me that there isn't much on offer and that FF/FG are just trying to bounce unions and their members into quick decisions to accepting any deal without ballots before Christmas.
So I predict no major changes to work practises, 5% or less rises (split over two years to be an effective rise of much less), a "bonus" to be paid in early 2024 as a major carrot to accepting a bad deal and all FEMPI legislation remaining in place. Official Ireland will then contact their client journalists to produce articles/radio/TV to bully any union with any issues not getting dealt with.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorials/2023/11/19/the-irish-times-view-on-a-public-sector-pay-deal-worth-doing-but-on-the-right-terms/
It's important enough for them to ask people to do if for free
The back dated pay certainly got the last deal over with an overwhelming majority. The same thing will happen I think next time. Agreed in March, implemented by May/June and backdated to January.
I don't care about backdated pay. I don't care about what we get day one. I care about the headline figure most and then how that is structured and broken down.
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