How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
The "defined" scale I'm on in the public sector has me on the same wage for the past 4 years. I go up the scale but the wage remains the same. In these inflationary times that's AKA as a pay cut.
By all means privatise education and health if you want and I'll go in and negotiate my salary with whatever private business owns the schools.
If posting my opinion is being a big baby, ok?
I'm guessing you've never negotiated a pay rise in industry. They don't just give employees what they want.... Most pay rises come from switching companies....
Public sector employees also have clearly defined scales to go up. In the private sector, you usually don't. You're conflating a lot into your example which doesnt make sense to do.
I agree with all of that. However, the general vibe on here is that the deal should equal inflation. My posts are largely in response to those calling for that and those saying budgetary measures should be excluded.
Plenty of areas just require increases irrespective of opinions to be competitive. IT and teachers being two of many.
The logical counter is to piss your employee off rather than reach some sort of agreement?
You're a big baby - that's what you are.
Unions are extremely poor. We are paying teachers an absolute pittance for the demands of the job with all austerity measures (e.g. Croke Park) introduced since 2008 still in place.
You'd want to be crazy to enter the public sector these days.
You don't just negotiate on the basis of inflation however.
It's pretty obvious that there are sectors of the public and civil service that are losing good staff and/or not able to attract the staff it needs to function for a variety of reasons. Pay is one. Without ever looking at inflation you have to see that changes made to pension schemes(as on example) are something that have drastically effected retention and enticement rates into the PS/CS and there's been no change made to bases salaries to compensate for this loss of benefits.
This directly impacts on the services the state provides and is one example of why negotions need to focus on a number of things.
Your comparing a negotation for a single person and an entire workforce. That makes no sense.
If an employee walked into my office and said give me a pay rise of X percent because of inflation, I'd immediately counter with energy credits. Any employer would. It's the logical counter.
I'm not advocting for a pay rise.Id advocate that we shouldn't get an effective pay cut. I thought that was your position too.
The only difference is I factor in the energy credits. You dont.
There's really no point in going in circles. I've laid out my position and it's not for you. That's the purpose of a forum.
Edit: I also fully expect that the deal won't meet my slightly lower expectations anyway and I'll be voting no alongside you and others here.
So I agree a 4000 raise with my employer. But then we go through and tot up the government budgetary measures applicable to me and reassess. €450 energy credit, 2 kids so a double payment in December €280, tax changes 2024 is about €1000. I am better of by €1,730.
4000-1730=2270 is the raise I'll be offered.
Is that what the Private Sector should do? It's essentially what the Paschal is suggesting for the Public Sector, except worse cause it's an across the board negotiation.
It's an absolute farce.
So not a pay rise and not universally applied.
Private sector employees get that plus any pay rise.
Households with one of each get multipliers, in your world. In no pay negotiations should tax credits and grants every make an impact to pay.
They also mean sweet **** all to my pension
Why the hell are people shilling for the employer? Turkey votes and Christmas come to mind
Good point.
Well then the rising cost of energy is split between you. Why should you get a pay rise to combat the full cost when it only partially effects you?
You might not agree with my view but there is rationale to it. You just don't agree with it. Thats fine. I get the counter argument, it's just not one I buy into.
I'll wait on the deal to be published and judge it then. If it's less then inflation, I'll vote no. I'll factor in energy credits into my decision.
Wanting the best deal and factoring in budgetary measures (specifically energy credits) are not mutually exclusive.
We arrive at different positions. I get your view and see the rationale. I just don't agree.
Hence why I said factor in the credits. It doesn't wash away inflation i.e. inflation minus contribution from gas/electricity (I'm not actually saying it's that blunt and all.of energy should be ignored)
My wife and I are PS workers. We got one credit between us. Why do we have to share a "benefit'?
It's a joke and you know it
However these energy credits in no way compensate for rises in others costs such as food and other essentials.
with euro zone inflation now projected to be 4% for next year ordinary skilled PS workers will fall behind again
many including teachers will vote with their feet and head elsewhere
"The unions are negotiating for the majority and the vast majority of people in the public sector will receive energy credits."
You'd be surprised. From what I can see in my own dept very few under 40 who are homeowners or not stuck living at home or in a house-share.
"The handful on the outside unfortunately, in my opinion, tough."
Really?
You know, for all you say that you'll refuse any deal that is less than inflation, I think you're really playing at being some kind of devils' advocate.
A very good point. Public servants will get no where near 12.4%. They'll be lucky to get half that and my prediction is that it will be a quarter of that figure.
the minimum wage is rising from 11.3 to 12.70 next year.. a 12.4% increase
if other lower paid workers dont see increases to keep on a par with cost of living increases there wont be much incentive for these workers
But the public pay talks are not going to be dictated by the small percentage you are talking about. The unions are negotiating for the majority and the vast majority of people in the public sector will receive energy credits.
I'm not going to get into the weeds with regards licensees or people living with Mam and Dad. Those people likely don't split the bills. If the licensee is paying a flat rate, then they're not effected. If they split the bill, of course you'd expect the credit to be passed on.
The vast majority of people in the public sector are either uneffected by rising domestic energy prices or the impact has been greatly reduced by the credits. Hence, its fair to take them (and probably them alone) into account. The handful on the outside unfortunately, in my opinion, tough.
Why should the vast majority get the energy credits and a rise equal to inflation (including rising energy costs over the past 2 years)? That doesn't make sense. The energy credits have to be taken into account for them and that may result in a 0.5 or 1% difference.
It's also alright for us to have differing opinions.
Yet again, your logic is flawed. The account holder gets the energy credit.
Do you think every owner-occupier who is letting out rooms, will share the credit with their licencees?
Or that every twenty or thirty something who is stuck living at home with their parents because they can't afford to move out, and who are trying to save while also contributing to their keep, are un-effected by the rise in energy costs?
Just because their name is not on the account, does not mean they are un-effected.
But they certainly will not receive the "universal" energy credits. Because they're not universal.
Then by the same logic, inflation shouldn't factor into pay negotiations. It doesn't effect everyone equally.
The energy credits were universal and it's perfectly understandable for them to be used as an argument.
If you're not effected by the increase in energy prices directly then you didn't receive the credits. If you are, then you received the credits. It's a fair a reasonable position for the government to take. of course budget measures will be factored in if of course you accept inflation should be the foundational argument for increases.
Budget measures should not form any part of pay negotiations for the simple reason that they do not apply to all. Across the population, some benefitted much more generously than others.
Not every person in the employ of the Civil and Public Service is either (a) a homeowner or a renter who is also the bill payer (b) a parent of young children (c) in receipt of some form of social welfare.
I guarantee you if someone in the private sector was negotiating a new pay rate with their employer, and the employer said "ah sure, didn't you benefit from the electricity credits?" it wouldn't fly.
It is not a reasonable position for the government to include budget measures as part of a pay negotiation, and the Unions need to make that very clear.
I'll definately be communicating this to my Union Representatives on Monday, and I suggest others do the same.
They given them twice now. Not quite a one off.
They should be factored into the discussion . They have eased the effect of inflation and their is a solid argument that the increase should be the inflation rate excluding the cost of energy (or a reduced effect.of that). If the credits are gone next year, that can be factored into the next deal. Once there's some consistency.
It's a reasonable position for the government to take.
You might have better look on this thread: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058309793/hse-recruitment-freeze-limbo#latest
Not sure if this is the right thread to ask this in, but thought I’d try get some opinions anyways.
I saw the news yesterday about the HSE recruitment freeze now applying to all staffing. I’m applying for a clerical officer role and at the last stages of the process - no contract signed though. I’d say it is highly likely this news will impact my role so I’m fearful I’ll be told it won’t going it ahead.
I did see Sinn Fein were calling for the decision to be reversed immediately. Is there any chance that there’ll be an outcry and the government will give in and give the HSE the bail out they’re looking for?!
Jesus, this site used to be so busy there was only ever good faith debate because single posters were expendable
No it’s definitely nonsense…it’s why you disappear out of the thread for a while every time you make a fool of yourself. At least you aren’t ‘debating’ with your other account this time I suppose.
And you’d have been banned a long time ago if the site wasn’t so desperate for every bit of traffic it can get.
This line they took last year, and now again this year, that "budget measures" should be taken into consideration when negotiating public service pay agreements needs to be knocked on the head by the Unions, immediately.
I knew when they got away with it last year, that they would do it again.
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