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Not being allowed to take flexi-time/not being paid overtime

damncyclist

Hi all,

I'm and administrative officer, have been for a number of years and have never had any trouble taking leave/flexi time. Never had much need to receive overtime. Earlier this year I moved to a busy section in a new department. I started building up heaps of flexi, and when I went to tale sometime off I was told "we don't operate flexi here." I thought grand they just pay overtime, and was similarly told overtime isn't done either. I questioned this a bit but was told "this is the culture of this department."

Has anyone else encountered this? I don't know how angry I can be about it.

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Damien360

Your only option is work the hours you are paid for and no more. Doesn't matter that it may leave them short. You are not getting paid for extra work done. At the end of the work day, switch off your phone, go home and enjoy your day.

Mrs OBumble

What advice did you union give?

How did you manage to start in a new department without induction that covered stuff like this?

Quitelife

Sharp practice my management to camoflague not having enough staff. Management try this in some workplaces to see how weak the staff are and can they get them to work extra hours for free.

You should contact youir Union asap.

doc22

Whats the department? I haven't heard no flexi in whole department before. I would say if you are working from home and are kicking up a fuss you might be put full time in office to verify work etc.

damncyclist

So the Union told that it is unfair, but its best to try sort it out locally first. Tried bringing it up with my manager but no budge at all. I'm on secondment so just went straight in no induction, also I'm not working from home, its 3 days office compulsory and normally 1 more depending on what's on.

Yeah Damien360 thats my thoughts just wanted to make sure I'm justified in it!

And quite life thats exactly what's happening, a colleague of mine who'd be a bit easier to push around than I would is on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

[Deleted User]

Typical useless response from the Union.

How long is left in your secondment, and has it been reviewed yet?

Have you done a role profile / PMDS, been given an opportunity to provide "upward feedback"?

Next step is go above your line managers head. Contact HR directly for confirmation of this so-called "culture" of no flexi in the department, which I think is your manager bullshitting.

In the meantime, run your clock down to zero.

damncyclist

Yeah I had my PMDS thing, was told I "wasn't giving yourself enough hours in the day," despite consistently working at least 40 hours each week.

Good shout on the HR thing,dont know why I didnt think of that before. I'll do that first, when I get an satisfactory answer then ill go full nuclear and cause havoc. I've technically only got 5 months left on the secondment so I've no trouble making enemies before I tip off.

leanbh

Might be worthwhile asking your local td to ask dail question: is flexi time available to aos in your department. If not why not.

Wouldn't get my hopes up with hr. They generally sing from same hymn sheet as line management.

Also for pmds I presume you have a log of hours (for your flexi request)

You should seek review of your pmds.

Keep record of all hours worked.

Kirbi

If this is the civil service then you can seek to end it before the scheduled end if it's within the first 6 months.

[Deleted User]

What efforts did you make to streamline your work so you can accomplish more tasks within the 40 hours? Any attempt to automate any of your tasks or to upskill in anything?

damncyclist

I dont know if thats a joke or not but ill answer. Yes I have, the problem is not that I dont get my work done on time, its that a lot of my work day is waiting for decisions/clearance which often comes at the last minute, prolonging my day in a way I have no control over.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192401#Comment_121192401

You do have control. 7 working hours after you start, you clock out

JimmyAlfonso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192715#Comment_121192715

This is the nail on the head. Clearance comes late then you pick it up the next working day. Fuss gets kicked up about stuff not getting done then the blame lies with those signing off. They're the bottleneck not you.

damncyclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192837#Comment_121192837

Yeah, that would've been my thinking on it too before I was in the situation. to be clear, I'm a big union man and have no problem standing up for myself, but I tell you, it's a different feeling when you're actually in these situations and potentially pissing off people that have a lot of control over how pleasant/unpleasant your day is. I think the thing is when you're in this kind of situation it's genuinely easier to get on with it and give in than it is to stand up and give out. Not to mention the uncertainty around what is actually legal (the circulars and employment legislation are all deliberately vague on the issue). I honestly never thought I'd find myself in this kind of place but here I am!

Flinty997

What exactly could they do if you leave on time.

Mrs OBumble

The OP is an AO, not a CO.

Just walking out could be seriously damaging to his / her career prospects, and would demonstrate a very serious issue with commitment to delivering results.

If it were me, I'd be looking for a politically acceptable way to end the secondment ASAP - and also resigning myself to the career hit, ie that AP isn't the job for me, so AO was a mistake.

The OP needs to weigh up potential long term career damage vs short term pain.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195213#Comment_121195213

Rubbish.

The problem isn't the OP isn't suitable to be an AO, the problem is his boss is an asshole, and most likely a spoofer.

OP, you are not the problem here.

Please ignore the non-civil servants on the thread who always seem to think they know more about the civil service than actual civil servants do.

There is more than one of them on this thread.

xeresod

Could this just be miscommunication? Per circular 08/2021, AOs (& HEOs) aren't entitled to payment for the first hour of overtime worked each weekday - so effectively for those grades, the 35 hour week is really 40 hours.

You also said "a lot of my work day is waiting for decisions/clearance which often comes at the last minute, prolonging my day in a way I have no control over", so work your hours to suit that - start at 10am, take a 1-2 hour lunch, finish at 6pm or 7pm to facilitate the decisions/clearance that don't come until 5pm!

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195550#Comment_121195550

Why should the OP have to drag out their lunchtime for 2 hours every day then work until 7pm every evening to suit someone else who is clearly not doing their job in a timely manner?

Nonsense.

OP, you're not obliged to work a minute more than your contracted 35 hours per week, or to stay until 7pm every evening. I presume you have a life / family outside of work! Remember, you also have a statutory right to "disconnect" from work outside of normal working hours. Close of Business is 5:30pm.

If decisions don't come in until 5pm, they get dealt with by COB or first thing the next working day.

If you're not being paid for your time, and you're not being allowed to take any flexi you accrue, then you're out the door at COB, or when your hours are done, (whichever comes first) and gone back to your parent dept as soon as the secondment is over, if sooner is not possible.

And make sure you roast your manager's attitude and the Dept's "culture" in the exit interview.

Good luck to them in retaining staff if this is how they treat them.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195636#Comment_121195636

You clearly don't have clue of the nature of some parts of the civil service or machinery of government.

I never said that the OP is "the problem". I said they have to think hard about their career aspirations, and behave accordingly. AO is for aspiring senior managers. People in senior management do regularly work more more than 35 hours /week - whether you like it or not.

yabadabado

Send an email to your line manager asking for clarification regarding Flexi time and overtime.

If they don't respond or try fob it off then send the email thread to HR and query it.

Until you get a satisfactory answer,do your 7 hours a day and not a minute more.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195737#Comment_121195737

Don't make me laugh.

I've been a civil servant for more than 30 years in multiple departments - you're not even a civil servant!!!

So please just stop. AO is a HEO position, and you more or less said that the OP is not suitable for an AP role, and "AO was a mistake".

This is a one year secondment. It will be a blip in the OP's career.

For Forks Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181459#Comment_121181459

This is about as far removed from a TDs job description as its possible to get, and that expectation that they should focus on minor crap,is why nothing larger scale for the improrovement of the country at large gets done.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195839#Comment_121195839

Their bread and butter tbh

Donald Trump

Mental for people in the private sector to read these sorts of threads.

[Deleted User]

OP, you should also take a look for your Dept in the results of at @TaurenDruid's most recent (unofficial) survey on each Dept's WHF and flexitime policies:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058303919/civil-service-blended-working-survey

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195737#Comment_121195737

If they want the AO to work like an AP, they need to pay them as an AP. Flexibility is important, and we can all be flexible to cover unusual situations, but this appears to be a requirement for regular, routine work outside of normal hours.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195885#Comment_121195885

Indeed, while the example is from a Local Authority, I gather the following work pattern is not unusual across the PC/CS.

I worked, as a consultant to a local authority with a staff member with a customer facing role: eg Motor tax.

We got on great.

One day, just after schools shut, she told me that she would be away for 5 weeks holiday, based on accumulated hours. this break was on top of her 5 week annual leave.

So, out of curiosity I looked at the work pattern.

Clock in shortly after 8 having brought the kid to creche

Clock out to collect kid from creche.

I asked about the hours, cost of crèche was from 8 to 6 so this allowed her clock loadsa extra hrs to take as time in lieu and her manager signed them off.

The customer facing role was 10 to 4

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195802#Comment_121195802

Specifically "AO is a HEO position"

If the were the same, they would be called ghe same. They aren't, cos they aren't.

An AO role is for someone with aspirations.

If the OP has aspirations, they need to weight these up against their current issue.

If they don't, then they need to get into an HEO role, and stop blocking the pathway.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196612#Comment_121196612

Oh, so HEO's don't have "aspirations"? Okay then.

Put down the shovel. You're bumbling along making yourself look ridiculous, as usual.

🙄