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New Build automation

SodiumCooled

Hi All, I have been posting over the past while in the construction forum but I have some questions that possibly fit better there.

Construction is underway on our self build which is being done via direct labour. It will soon be time to start approaching local electricians to quote for wiring he house etc but I am quite keen on making my home a smart home. I am tech savvy myself and have lots of bits running like smart plugs, smart bulbs, I have played around with home assistant etc but I am really looking to do the house from scratch from a smart perspective. What I don't want is spending money on traditional lighting for example only to go changing it switches, bulbs etc after we move in.

I know there are different routes to go down from systems like Loxone which looks very nice to more DIY type systems with relays etc. Ideally to do this right I think the only way is to have the electrician onboard but firstly I am unsure how keen on this sort of stuff they will be and secondly have then even got access to the hardware or the knowledge to install. I am in a rural area in the south East so far from Dublin etc where there is possibly more people with this knowledge.

From what I've seen I quite like the look of Loxone, lighting is my main thing first and foremost and I want physical switches not smart bulbs that can be controlled by app and also by a centralised tablet. Gate and garage door control I would also like to tie into this and then down the like leave it possible to add more (of which some I would be happy to do myself but not for the first install).

Any advise on either equipment or experience in how difficult it might be to get this all installed would be appreciated. I know it's not the cheap way to go but I would also like to try keep the costs down as much as possible to. I have always wanted to do this when building but it seemed much simpler when looking from afar than now trying to actually do it.

Thanks.

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WildCardDoW

It's a tough one to answer. I'm doing it post build piece by piece because of the costs and because I didn't want to purchase €1000s and find it is crap gear.

There's the general questions and then there's the Loxone specificity. Your issue with Loxone is sourcing the equipment, have you figured that out? They seem to have specific installers that will have access to their gear, so it might be your standard electrician does first fix and these do second fix which will be a nightmare I would think - part and parcel of a self build I suppose. Be the same for most other pieces, plumber etc.

General:

You need to get the electrician on board with installing smart switches. There shouldn't really be an issue, smart switches have the neutral at the switch which is standard regs now. After that it is switch type, naturally adding smart to a switch massively ups the costs. Sonoff WiFi ones are €16 as a guide price, even fancy non smart are a lot cheaper than that. I can't see an electrician having issues installing smart switches despite your distance from Dublin. I doubt they will sort supply though.

You need to decide what else is smart - Gate and garage control should be standard relays with maybe a need for some extenders to get the signal out far away.

You will need to tell the plumber to not order any valves assuming you are also going smart for each rad - so from a €10-€20 valve it's €30-€50. You will also need to discuss the heating requirements, are you just going TRV route which talks to a receiver at the boiler or do you also plan on zones etc. I'd assume you're going underfloor so maybe it will be smart thermostats in rooms to turn on / off the underfloor. Again, if you go down a custom route outside their usual known devices most plumbers / installers will likely not want to supply so that's on you to get. You normally need to coardinate between plumber and electrician for the heating setup: zone valves, Stát placement etc.

Security again when going generic smart you probably don't need anyone to help as it is all wireless nowadays, especially for smart equipment.

WildCardDoW

A correction to the plumber comment is they may need to get TRV body, but you need to investigate the radiator heads advertised by Loxone.

SodiumCooled

Thanks WhildCard for the very detailed post. I suppose I mentioned loxone in particular more because I have come across it on some builds I follow on instagram and it just looked very cool with the ipad on the wall giving full control over the house. I haven't really seen other complete systems done the same way but I am sure they are out there (I have heard of things like control4 etc but not really seen much about them).

I am not against a DIY either especially for tying in things like gate, garage door and alarm systems but I just feel lighting I'd like done right as its probably the most major install off all the smart home systems. Running something like home assistant to tie everything together would be well within my capability but keeping everyting working can be work with some of these DIY setups.

The idea of hardwired light switches also rather than wifi was appealing (from loxone or similar if available) as wifi is not as reliable plus if every switch is wifi it is a lot of devices though I know alternatives like zigbee etc are out there. On the other hand the hardwired system run CAT cabling to switches as far as Im aware so you are very tied into the ecosystem then also going that route.

We will be underfloor heating throughout the house so no rads at all so tying in the thermostats would be nice but to be honest with underfloor being such a set and forget really I wouldn't mind if this was just a separate app or whatever though it would be nice to tie it all in.

SodiumCooled

Hi All, just digging up with thread again as I have been doing a bit of reading in the background. Would Shelly products be considered a viable route for a full lighting system automation (plus some other bits like gates and garage door but other options are there for standalone things like these). I like that you can use normal switches and all products do seem available to buy - obviously extra work for the electrician but doesn't seem to be anything overly complex as you seem to still wire switches rather than using Ethernet cable to switches etc.

I see there is options for relays at the switch or centrally located - I guess centrally located is probably best but will require a much larger breaker box?

Nelbert

There's a balance.

Centrally located at breaker box and your switch and your light likely end up on independent cable runs somewhat pot commiting you to the relays forever. Likely only an option in a full rewire.

Behind the switch works fine and will be more familiar setup to a residential sparks.

They are easy to wire (particularly the plus pm models). Some don't need neutral but I've not used any of those.

Ive smart bulbs everywhere and am gradually adding Shellys behind the wall switches (in detached relay mode) to improve user functionality and backup. The switch gets flicked, HA detects the shelly input change and toggles the smart bulb. If my home assistant setup was ever down for an extended period I'd change the Shelly's to normal mode and control the lights directly.

SodiumCooled

Thanks, it is a new build so a blank slate so centrally located is an option (once the sparks would be happy to do it, I haven't started getting quotes/discussing yet).

Personally I like the centrally distributed I think its a more professional way about it when doing it from scratch also means you can hardwire the relays rather than use wifi. But at the same time it will probably be harder get someone to do it. As far as stuck with relays, maybe I'm missing something but I don't see that as a big issue - you could totally ignore the smart aspect and use all lights as normal as if it was wired tradationally so I don't see why reverting back to a traditional system would be desired and any other type of smart system such as one that uses Cat5/6 to switches would need a rewire anyway.

From anyone with experience of wiring would wiring up centrally located relays be a major additional headache for a residential electrician? Does it massively increase the amount of cable runs or make it much more complicated to run?

Also if going relay at the switch route, how easily do they fit inside the box behind the switch?

Nelbert

I agree the central is better but it has caveats. It's out of the normal and the Shellys will be unfamiliar territory for most sparks too so you'll pay a premium for that (unless you get a sparks that takes it as a learning opportunity).

It'll require way more cable as the lights can't be all run from from one loop circuit. Each switch and each light (or group controlled by a single switch) will be on their own run.

The Shelly pros don't seem to have a dimming function either so you'd lose that unless going with smart bulbs and detached relay approach.

The in wallbox modules are fine as long as you've a decent depth backbox and nothing obnoxious on the back of the switch size wise.

The most cost effective solution may be in wall as it just requires neutral at the switch (which should be done now anyway) and you can request deepest backboxes possible (45mm depth I think) to make things easy.

Other things I've learned is to avoid 3 circuit switches on a 1 gang width switch and the same for the 6 or 8 switch faces you can get for the double with backboxes.

Also you could potentially reduce costs (for wiring) by requesting no 2 way wiring as it will simplify module install (L, N and SL definitely all in same backbox) and you could get the same function using the Shellys. eg light switch a bottom of stairs for hall and landing and the switch at the top of stairs for landing - just get the hall wired to the bottom of stairs and landing at the top..... Double switch and a shelly 2pm behind each and you can control both lights with 1 relay set to control the circuit and the other to control the other Shellys relay. I'd do a drawing for that example if I wasn't on my phone!

SodiumCooled

Lots of food for thought, many thanks.

wexfordman2

Wifi evolves, so in 20 years time, what version if wifi are you going to have controlling your lights.

Hardwired is the best way to go. Loxone is an excellent system and uses similar architecture to lots of other systems so hardwiring doesn't mean you are stuck to one vendor (although it can be messy to switch and mix different systems).

I would 100% recommend you install a hard wired system such as loxone or velbus for example which are extremely diy friendly (but using a qualified sparks for the wiring(.

I have a velbus system installed nearly 20 years with cat x cabling to my wall switches!

SodiumCooled

Just to update, we are likely going to go the wifi switch route. Either shelly behind a standard switch or else a sonoff switchman (still looking to see if other options are around too). I've bought samples of both and will discuss with the electrician but in principle he is willing to fit them if I supply. I discussed the other options and while not an expert he was familiar with systems and was very against the low voltage system with cat cabling as you are locked in and if things go wrong or you want to change you are stuck. He said he recently rewired a house that had a low voltage system that went wrong. It would also be very expensive which he is definitely correct with.

The wifi switches or relay behind I like as I don't even need to do all the switches to begin with for cost reasons etc and I can upgrade myself again as I want. It's also very simple to revert to a totally standard system or upgrade in future to better wifi systems.

SodiumCooled

Hi All, apologies but circling back on this again. As above we had being going ahead with the plan of using Shelly behind the switch relays but the electrician is now starting to come around to the idea of the switch board mounted Shelly pro range instead. He wants me to tell him exactly what is needed though before he makes a decision on going this route and how it will work in different scenarios e.g. circuits with 2,3 and 4 way switching (as we are struggling to figure this out for the Shelly behind the switch range.

i can’t seem to find a side by side comparison online of how a normal light circuit is wired and how a Shelly pro 3 or 4 would be wired. Naively I was thinking/hoping it’s as simple as just running an extra wire back from a switch to the Shelly unit and otherwise the Shelly is just wired in normally but the live, neural pass through it rather than straight out into the circuit from the breaker but I fear it’s not that simple.

bascially would anyone with more knowledge be able to describe the difference. The electrician is only willing to deviate away from standard wiring a small bit so if there is a drastic change in how the wiring is done then we are back to the units behind the switches. Thanks.

Nelbert

The Shelly pros have a live and neutral in and then up to 4 switched live outputs and up to 4 switch inputs.

So if your Shelly pro at your fuseboard is to control things then you have your switched live outputs hooked up to the lights.

To use manual switches you'd then need to pull at least a live (the same live that feeds the Shelly pro) and a switched live to the wall switch.... With the switched live going back to the Shelly pro to let it know the switch has been toggled.

It would pretty much lock you in to the setup though.

So for each Shelly you'd want a paired circuit breaker that kills the power to it and all associated switches....

2 and multi way switching is conceptually the same as if your sparks was trying to get it set up already... The switched live that would normally turn on the lights just goes back to the Shelly instead.

Mad concept but no reason you need wall switches at all.... Or at the very least don't need ones fixed in place.....

I've wireless switches stuck to the fridge for kitchen lights like (they control various grouped smart bulbs but could just control a Shelly relay as easily).

Could sell the other half on crisp clean walls with no ugly switches.....

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029658#Comment_121029658

Thanks for the reply, it does seem to mean more of a change from standard wiring than the electrician may be willing to do.

to maybe simplify things, he has already run the wiring for a number of the rooms - what has to change for a one light with just one switch setup? As I said just talking about it with no diagrams etc we thought it might be analogous with changing a single switch to a two way switch (with the Shelly being the second switch) but sounds like there is more to it than that.

I wouldn’t be too worried about being tied to the Shelly but I also didn’t think it changed the system so much that you would be so again I was underestimating how much the Shelly changed things, I thought it could just be bypassed and everything would work.

As for no switches, aside from there being no way the electrician would go for it I myself would not like it either. We put a lot of thought into switch locations etc before chasing and a lot of time into where we would want 2, 3 and even 4 way switches - for the kitchen for example we have 4 locations where they can be switched on/off from. I really like the idea of having both normal switches and behind the scenes everything is smart.

Nelbert

Everything you are saying there means I'd suggest abandon the Shelly pros and go with the behind switch modules.... In a mulit switching setup it needs a live and a neutral.... It needs to go in whichever point has the "final" switched live to the live which would go to its output. The switch input would be connected to essentially sit on the switching config where the that same switched live would go to the lights.

I have it working on 2 2 way in my hall and landing for my landing and landing and attic landing for attic stairs and landing lights.

Whichever switch has the actual feed to the to the lights is the best spot for it.

I've mine set up in detached mode though so I just detect the switch toggling and toggle the smart bulbs as opposed to actually turning the circuit on and off.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121030745#Comment_121030745

Hi and sorry to revisit again but we are at decision time here on how to proceed most wiring is run but still opportunity to run additional wiring at switches if necessary. At his time any wiring for lights is standard.

I first I think I need to rule out the shelly pros to simplify things - just to confirm these are not as simple as just wiring as normal and then running an extra wire from the shelly pro to the wall switch? Also can they control a circuit with 2, 3 and 4 way switching? If its more complex than one extra wire or it cant easily control multiple circuits then I will rule it out.

I am happy enough to go ahead with behind the switch relays and its fine for single switch circuits but I am still a little confused on 2, 3 and I have one 4 way circuit. There is very conflicting wiring diagrams online and people saying the shelly is blocking control with the wall switches. You have said you are using on a two way switch, is this using standard wiring or is there additional wiring needed to make the shelly work on multiple gang switches?

My most complex circuit has 4 switch locations controlling the same set of lights so this is probably the best example to use - if you had time would you mind doing a very brief sketch of how you would envisage wiring the shelly into such a circuit so all wall switches and the shelly can control the lights with no blocking etc. My electrician is very good with standard wiring but I think I need a side by side comparison to really show him how to wire the shelly into the system compared to a normal circuit.

AmpMan

Put in the deep back boxes .

Avoid 3 & 4 gang switches, put two deep singles side by side if needed.

It'll give you more options .

10-10-20

Hi, I think you're stuck as from what I can see, you can't have a 3 or 4-way switched config without the Shelly blocking. The reason is that the Shelly devices only offer a soft-switch on the input, you don't have a common like you would on a standard relay, hence you can't pass the current through to the outputs on the Shelly when it's either offline or Home Assistant is down (or the wifi fails). An example circuit to demonstrate this is this lower one (4th Aug 2022):

https://www.shelly-support.eu/forum/thread/16146-how-to-wire-shelly-2-5-in-circuit-with-3-switches/

There you can see that the switched live which passes through each of the two-way switches is fed into the SW input via the grey wire. SW isn't a common and will be blocking.

The other thing that I'll mention is that the Shelly devices aren't 100% robust. This thread here is about a Shelly which keeps going offline due to the EMI from a pump, and it's annoying to have to pull the power to the Shelly to fix it from time to time. So just bear that in mind if you go down the Shelly Pro route as I don't know if the reset button will work if the Shelly is in a software lockup.

If it were me, I'd be looking at installing the controllers at the rear of the switch for sure - far less messing around with home-runs back to the consumer unit.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154117#Comment_121154117

Back boxes are already in at 35mm which is sufficient for a shelly relay to fit based on my reading online. I will have a number of 2, 3 and even a 6 gang switch in one location - that is unavoidable at this point as chasing done and boxes fitted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154227#Comment_121154227

Thanks, just to confirm you are referring to the shelly pros with the blocking comments and the issues with EMI? The wiring diagram in the link is referring only to the behind the light relays which is why I am a bit confused. In the 4th August diagram are you saying this is how to do it or that doing it this way could cause blocking issues? I would risk the blocking if it could only happen were the shelly actually down (which I would hope would be rare) once all 3 switches and the shelly could independently control the light in the diagram without preventing it working under normal operating conditions

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154413#Comment_121154413

My situation is where I have a Shelly 1 which is being affected by EMI. Maybe it isn't the best example to use, but what I was saying is that you may need to pull the power to the Shelly devices to get them to reset, I have mine either on a plug socket or on a fused spur, so it's easy enough. I'm not sure how that's done with the Pro range though, other than to have to flip the associated breaker? Anyway, don't worry about EMI, I think it's just the pump causing it in my case.

As for the blocking question... all of the Shelly Pro's that I have looked at have just had dry contacts and they don't have a normally-open/normally-closed output and a common that I was referring to. I think that means that you can't do true unblocked switching as the Shelly doesn't pass-through the switched-live.

https://kb.shelly.cloud/knowledge-base/shelly-pro-1-v1

(sorry if I'm not being clear, head is muggy from a bad head-cold).

SodiumCooled

Thanks, I think I understand you. At this stage I will just stick with the behind the switch relays be that a 1L, 1, 2.5, dimmer etc which I can tryb to work out again for different switches as nothing will be installed until second fix its only wiring I need correct.

So from looking at the recent diagrams for 2, 3, 4 etc way circuits the shelly should be wired between the last switch and the light and the wiring is standard (i.e. the switches in the chain are all wired as normal) except the need to possibly run an extra permanent live to the shelly if one isn't available but otherwise no extra wiring needed? The switches then tell the shelly to turn on/off rather than the switch actually doing it. Also the shelly could be removed and the light circuit redone as normal if needs be? Am I understanding this correctly?

The big assumption here is that the wiring being done is the same as the wiring described in the tutorials e.g. the below standard wiring is how a house in Ireland is normally wired

Standard:

With shelly:

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155776#Comment_121155776

The switches then tell the shelly to turn on/off rather than the switch actually doing it.

Yes exactly.

Also the shelly could be removed and the light circuit redone as normal if needs be? Am I understanding this correctly?

Yip, simple enough mod at the back of the switch.

except the need to possibly run an extra permanent live to the shelly if one isn't available but otherwise no extra wiring needed?

P-live should be there at the back of the switch anyway (as long as it's the first switch in the series).

10-10-20

Back boxes are already in at 35mm which is sufficient for a shelly relay to fit based on my reading online.

I think I'd encourage you to do-up a mock wall and fit a back-box (plastic one, not metal) and try test out that theory. 35mm sounds tight to me, especially considering that some switches have deeper backs and some also have cable screws coming in at odd angles. I did notice that Shelly have a new mini offering though, they look very small, but only a mock-up will tell.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155873#Comment_121155873

Is it not the last switch in the series the shelly should come after? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the first/last switch meaning though - I am going off the diagram above which I think is similar to the one you linked earlier.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155907#Comment_121155907

I have one shelly 1L and I tried it in a 35mm metal backbox and with the proposed switch it has room to rattle around i.e. there is space between the shelly and the switch terminals - this is without wires though as was just sitting on a table in front of me and just for a single switch. Since the switch sits on the outside of the back box I also think it is effectively more than 35mm (though I may be assuming wrong here). Chasing to deeper was a no-go, chasers didn't want to do it, architect wouldn't be happy etc.

I'm fairly sure Shelly themselves say a 35mm back box should be sufficient

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155909#Comment_121155909

That diagram is conceptual. As far as I remember usually L & N enter into the first back-box and then the L heads off to the series of switches in what's called a pair of "travelers". SB1 would be where you should install the Shelly where it should have access to L & N.

It might be a good question to ask the electrical guys as from memory there is a thread on here somewhere which discussed the three or four different ways of wiring up lights in Ireland, and we're not sure what method you already have.

Nelbert

Playing catch up....

Encourage deeper back boxes. 35mm may seem a lot when you look at Shelly dims but you have the cable entry in the rear of the box and the rear of the actual switch fighting for that space too. Every bit of extra space is vital.

One of the others suggest mutliple twin gang switches rather the 3's 4's and beyond. 100% agree. I'm looking at neat ways to convert a 4 gang and a couple of 3 gangs to correct for this retrospectively.....

The diagram for the 3 way switch above is exactly right. Essentially all the Shelly sees is the ending feed of all the switches turning on or off and reacting. So you need permanent live, neutral and that end result of the chain of switches in to the Shelly... output of the shelly goes to the switched live that feeds the light.

For a sparks - shelly needs live and neutral and sits in between the switched live from the switch and the feed to the lights.

As an aside..... if you lighting is truly smart and runs off motion and voice commands.... all the 2, 3 and 4 way switching is pointless. My 4 gang box that I need to solve is comprised of 1 "proper" switch and 3 X the second half of a 2 way.... it gets used exactly zero times a day now as lights come on and off based on door openings, motion and time of day.

wexfordman2

Just thought I would add in something I did very recently. My smart lighting system was put in over 20 years ago initially. I had it working off motion sensors etc with motion activated lights and timers etc. Very happy with it, but I always had a bit of an issue with timers, in the bathroom particularly, if for example you sat in the throne too long, the lights ould go out.

I recently added a presence detector to the bathroom, and its fantastic , no timers needed, the detection is a lot faster, but detecting when someone has walked in, but also when they have left , and you get an instantaneous reaction for either scenario.

Will be getting a few more, they are USB powered and mount similar to a pair, and work with home assistant.

Something to think about, not necessarily everywhere, but in places like a bathroom, and kitchen, or a living room where you may be sitting for a while without motion detecting .

AmpMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156000#Comment_121156000

Yea you wont have a natural at that switch unless its specifically wired for it.

Never heard travelers, might be an American thing. I've only ever heard them called strappers.

You'll regret the 3,4,5,6 gang switches.

The best way to do 2 way & 2 way intermediate is to the switch wire go back to a box (or the CU) and have the smart switch there with a dedicated switch wire to the lamp.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157051#Comment_121157051

Thanks for the feedback, I am committed to the 35mm now anyway as chasing is done, majority of back boxes for sockets and wiring is already fitted - switch wiring is really all that's left as we have been holding off pending me giving info on how I want it wired (though as I mentioned before he won't wire in a way that couldn't easily be converted back to working without the shelly so that rules out things like not having 2/3/4 way circuits or multiple gang switches.

I am a bit worried about space in some of the busier boxes but I am hoping to be lucky in the the shellys will be going in some of the less busy boxes - I could consider using a few sonoff switchman M5's also as they can be integrated on home assistant also. Herself isn't gone on the look of them which is why I am not considering them in more places. I wonder can you just put one of these at one of the switch locations and normal switches at the others and still get full control?

I intend to implement the motion, switches triggering other lights etc but I do like it working as normal too and other people in the house would prefer it that way too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157734#Comment_121157734

Yes I have heard the electrician use the word strappers so that seem to be the lingo here.

With the amount of switches and switching locations we need the multiple ganng switches was hard to avoid. We only have one 6 gang at the top of a staris and its one of two rows of 3 type switches - there is a lot of lights to switch from here upstairs landing x 3 sets of lights/two way for downstairs hall and a bathroom which the switch is outside. The majority are max 4 gang.

Nelbert

You're tied in to them because you're not committing fully to smarts.

My biggest regret is not having faith it would all work as it should. A 4 and 3 gang eyesore taunting me in my kitchen / living space and 2 x 3 gangs in my hall as a result not committing.

Shellys allow you to have smarts without the need for 2 way switching. Even if you don't go home assistant route they can talk to each other (via backup WiFi network with each other in the event of network being down but that's more likely to be a wider power outage).

If you buy the right stuff and set it up right you're laughing.

All of my lights are driven by motion or presence (couple of FP2 presence sensors and some of the cheaper Athom ones). Rarely even use voice commands to turn lights on.... even rarer to use a wall switch.

If wires are just pulled unless you've concrete or very narrow walls 45mm back boxes for the light switches are a simple swap out and low cost. It's hidden and they are dirt cheap. They'll make your and the sparks life easier.