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Calling yourself British.

dinorebel

I'm English and have lived in Ireland for 30 years (I'm 60 so half my life) I'm confused with the idea of people calling themselves British not one person I know either English, Scottish or Welsh calls or identifies themselves as British if asked we're English , Scottish or Welsh why does the Unionist community claim this identity as uniquely belonging to them?

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ejmaztec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026741#Comment_121026741

The official title only became Great Britain after the union with Scotland.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310581/calling-yourself-british

It might be to do with the fact that The UK isn't really a happy union at the moment. The Scots and Welsh are pretty opposed to the government for the last decade. The UK nations aren't equal partners, they're colonies of England. Its England's union. The capital is in England, the Parliament, the monarch, most government departments, are all based in England. Northern Ireland unionists are one of the few groups outside England who are happy to be a colony of England.

British could refer to the cultures in the UK. But even that's all about England and they're pretty disinterested in the other cultures outside of England. The languages in the UK are a good example. They have some really interesting language like Welsh, Scots, Scottish gealic, Irish in NI, and then some others like Cornish and I think Manx is extinct now. But your average English person who identifies as British would never dream of learning any of their British languages.

One of my mates expressed a negative attitude towards Welsh. They said the Welsh just use the language to piss off the English. They reckoned they just started speaking Welsh in the pub to make the English feel unwelcome. It never even occurred to them to learn a few basic Welsh phrases to help them get along with the locals. Everyone knows how to say hello, and how to order a beer for holidays in Spain, but they hadn't thought of showing the same courtesy for their own British culture.

If they were genuinely interested in the other nations, then it would make more sense to refer to themselves as British. But I think some English people who consider themselves British, have contempt for the other UK nations. They see them as decorations for England. Just my opinion.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028184#Comment_121028184

Well, yes, because prior to the union of 1707 there was no kingdom covering the whole island which could have "Great Britain" (or anything else) as its official title; there were separate kingdoms of England and Scotland.

But the term "Great Britain" for the whole island goes back way before 1707. Ptolemy (about AD 150) calls it Great Britain to distingish it from Ireland, which he calls Lesser Britain. Geoffrey of Monmouth (12th century) calls it Great Britain to distinguish it from Brittany in modern France. And from 1604, when James VI of Scotland becomes James I of England as well, he calls himself King of Great Britain, even though the two kingdoms will not be united under that name for another century.

purplepanda

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026779#Comment_121026779

Some English people seriously maintain that anyone born in England with both parents from either Ireland, Scotland or Wales is therefore English, whilst saying those with both parents being from Continental Europe, ie: Greek, Spanish, Italian aren't English.

Basically if you look English you're English, your parents even might be French or German, Dutch, Danish, / North West European in looks, you're English. 🤣

If your parents are both Eastern or Southern European background, that's often noticeably different, often the parents English language skills are not as proficient as perhaps NW Europeans would be.

In some ways it's not logical, but it's often popular opinion.

El_Duderino 09

On the other side of the discussion, here's a caller telling David Lammy he could be British but couldn't be English. Lammy was born in England to Windrush Generation Afro-Caribbean parents. She doesn't say it's because he's not white...

My FIL is English and said his mother held that attitude (he doesn't agree). I presume it's specific to people who lived through the Windrush Generation migration.

https://youtu.be/ssLC4U7u9t8?si=nm4vTEI4T2xz1oLN

El_Duderino 09

Honestly, I think they're very confused about their history, culture and ultimately their identity. That lack of curiosity, and engagement in their own history bugs me because the history is really rich.

Last weekend we were looking for a location for a family day out and by pure chance we ended up in the family home of Charles Trevelyan in Northumberland. Him from The Fields Of Athenry, "for you stole Trevelyan's corn". He was in charge of famine relief in Ireland during the famine. Once we clocked the name we were really curious about how they would report that bit of history. But they didn't even mention it.

I often think of a James Conolly quote about how "Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me". I'll put the full quote at the end. So we went to this house, and they completely ignored the history of the people who lived there. It's as if the fantastic house and grounds were the history, not the lives of the people.

I often think of that Conolly quote when I see politicians proclaim their love for the flag (Trump went through a phase of hugging the flag) Johnson talked about Britain during Brexit but couldn't give a shyte about the people of Britain.

The house and grounds were fantastically run with hours of family fun on the grass and in the forest. It was just a shame that they focused solely on the physical house rather than the people from the house. The land was gifted by William the Conquerer after 1066 so it had nearly a thousand years of history.

Connolly's quote:

"Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland," and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, shame and degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland-yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032653#Comment_121032653

Funny, El Duderino, I was just thinking the exact opposite last week. I have begun, through a circuitous route, to read and study about Medieval Ireland. And it struck me , firstly, how little I learned in school about medieval or ancient Ireland, and secondly how little is explored on our media , especially our much vaunted public broadcaster. While in contrast British TV, mainstream and satellite, are overrun with history programs about British, mainly English , history from the battle of Hasting onwards. On almost any evening i will find an interesting program on some aspects of English history on TV , but very seldom on Irish TV. I have the same problem with the public library. I am currently awaiting access to translation of Acallam na Senórach and an Táin but neither are readily available.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032707#Comment_121032707

I don't disagree with any of that. But I'm always shocked at how few people watch the really great documentaries on BBC4. It's where I get most of my British history.

I'd be delighted if there was more about medieval history in Ireland. The school version kinda jumps from Cú Chulainn to the Vikings and Brian Boru.

[Deleted User]

English people typically use British as their designation, they neither see or understand the colonialist aspects of their choice. It's not uncommon for English people to refer to southern Irish as British in their ignorance and it's certainly not uncommon in the media. The English can be arrogant and ignorant like no othe nation.

I am English by birth and Irish by right of naturalisation through my mother's side. I call myself Irish because of my heritage and choices but when Irish people laugh at the notion I take no offense and tell them I am English by birth and Irish by heritage. It usually satisfies. I generally take great care not to use British because I know how it rubs the Scots and Welsh up the wrong way.

And the ironic thing is the northern protestants ( my heritage) don't even have the right to call themselves British since they are not part of the land mass of Britain. The clue is in the "Britain and Northern Ireland" part.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032653#Comment_121032653

Oh I dunno, they love an old stately home visit over there, and tbf, the national trust keeps a lot of these old places in great condition. Maybe it's just cos I love buildings 😊

And of course, you have to remember, that name means nothing to them, we know it because of the famine and the song etc, that's not interesting for most of them.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032740#Comment_121032740

Yeah it is a national trust site and the grounds are kept brilliantly. And it was really child friendly.

My issue is, what's the point in the house except the people who lived in it? Maybe it's just how I view history. I went to the Doscovery museum in Newcastle on Thursday and its full of 18th and 19th century engineering stuff like engines for ships and mines and so on. I realised I wasn't that interested in that stuff compared to ancient history and natural history. Maybe some people just like the building and don't need the history of the people it housed. But I prefer it the opposite way around.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032731#Comment_121032731

The point about Northern unionists calling themselves British is true, of course, for the geographical reason you pointed out. But British is also used to mean the culture of Britian. It usually refers to England and its culture but it's definitely used as a cultural identifier.

Why northern irish unionist are so keen to identify with a culture that doesn't recognise them, is beyond me.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032869#Comment_121032869

What always struck me about the northern unionists is how utterly alien and distateful their behaviour and culture is to most British people. There is literally no commonality of culture between the two.

AyeGer

I was amazed as an Irishman in Glasgow years ago that there was so much animosity towards the English. A lot of Scot’s had a chip on their shoulder against the English. Much more than I’ve ever experienced in Ireland.

The British only identity in Northern Ireland is a bit cringe. They aren’t really considered British by the real British people from Britain (I.e the island of England, Scotland & Wales).

[Deleted User]

Watch the fun you have when you give an English person a N.Irish bank note. Your'd sware that you just **** on their shoes.

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033018#Comment_121033018

Same in Scotland they wouldn’t accept NI Sterling. Seemed ridiculous as it’s all sterling.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032707#Comment_121032707

Maybe because the history of medieval Ireland doesn't fit a narrative the same way more modern history does.

Remember the history we learn in school is told from the view point of the outcome of the War of independence.

To over simplify

Irish, Gaelic, Catholic, Republican = Good

English/British, Anglo Saxon, Protestant, Monarchist= Bad.

So from the 1600s up to today it is easy to tell who was good and who was bad.

But before that it's a bit more complex.

The Normans were "invited", they assimilated by marrying into the Irish landowning class, they became "more Irish than the Irish themselves", they were Catholic, and they were also loyal to the crown in London.

That narrative doesn't fit as easily as the reformation, plantation, penal laws, famine, black and tans one does.

El_Duderino 09

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that.

My family home is a few km from the Rock of Dunamase which is the very castle that was used as payment to the Normans when they were invited to fight in Ireland.

rock22

@El_Duderino 09 "Once we clocked the name we were really curious about how they would report that bit of history. But they didn't even mention it."

I do agree that one thing the English/British are very good at is spinning their history to always be on the right side. perhaps it is just 'history being written by the victor' but they will always omit any thing negative and exaggerate anything positive. And of course they are capable of the opposite, using events to smear anyone else. . I suspect that that need to always be on top, might explain the considerable output in 'historic productions' ,. And i will admit to enjoying and appreciating them, even if it means swallowing a lot of, essentially, propaganda. i recently read a book, The Red Nile, where they author, in passing, mentioned that it was really the British that deciphered the Hieroglyphs and Champollion had copied his ideas from an Arabic scholar. Or that the Enigma code was broken in Bletchley Park. The examples are too numerous to list.

Which is why I would like to read or see some history of these islands from other perspectives.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033245#Comment_121033245

Really interesting place that doesn't get much attention like the rock of Cashel, Bunratty castle and other better known places.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033718#Comment_121033718

Wasn't the code broken in Bletchley park?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035635#Comment_121035635

It was, by a team led by Alan Turing whose mother Ethel Stoney was from Tipperary.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035635#Comment_121035635

Early Enigmas were first broken in Poland according to this UK Sky History article.

https://www.history.co.uk/articles/the-polish-cryptographers-who-cracked-the-enigma-code

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035817#Comment_121035817

I didn't know that. If they also cracked it independently in England then it's fair to celebrate it. If the Irish cracked the enigma code, after Poland but in a way that really affected the war, then we'd celebrate the shyte out of it.

Delighted to hear the bauld Turing had an Irish mother, by the way.

Emblematic

The big achievement of Bletchley was probably cracking the much more advanced Lorenz cypher system:

https://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/fish.htm

I think I read that variants of Lorenz system were used by the Soviet Union many years after the end of the war.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121036054#Comment_121036054

I didn't know that either but I did see that the Polish had been working on it and had an early machiine. They passed on their work to the British when Poland was defeated.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121036054#Comment_121036054

It was a collaborative effort which saved many lives.

Actually Ethel Stoney was born in India where her father was working as a railway engineer.

Part of the colonies and all that but she spent much of her childhood in Ireland.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035635#Comment_121035635

No, The enigma code was originally broken by Polish intelligence. They tried to share intelligence with British but were rebuffed. But the French were interested and they shared with them. When France fell their intelligence agencies passed on the information to the British.

That's not to say that Bletchley park didn't do important work. The codes changed over time and they developed a computer to help test various codes. But it is a rare UK history book or TV program that gives any credit where it belongs, with the Poles.

My point wasn't to denigrate the work of Bletchley park, it was rather to show how writing history allows the UK to appropriate any positives to itself while ignoring the negative, such as Trevallyan's enterprise in Ireland

[Deleted User]

You are generally considered a low rent scumbag in England if you describe yourself as English. It has the whiff of the National Front about it.

There has also been a sort of awkward trend to calling yourself English in response to Scottish and Welsh devolution - but it's very forced posturing for most English people

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121040516#Comment_121040516

I get what you mean but that's a bit of an exaggeration. With that said, I know people who would like to celebrate St George's day as a bit of fun and a day off, but said they're afraid of others making the association you just made. So it's self perpetuating.

There's a similar association with football. I have mates who support lower league teams where they come from. Travel home for most games in the conference and national leagues, but wouldn't be bothered with England games. They only got together to watch the Euros a few years ago when England got to the semi final. Lower league football is seen as a passionate fan's game but England is associated with nationalism and day trippers rather than real fans.