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Dummies on big money

take everything

The notion of serious dumdums on big money is one that has always baffled and intrigued me.

How these people got to where they are? How they survive everyday in their jobs? How they haven't been fecked out. How few qualifications and little actual ability a lot of such people have.

The stream of hardneck dumdum CFOs and CEOs from RTE before the PAC is just the latest example of this.

It strikes me that the higher you go in any field, that what one needs for most high powered jobs is 80% hardneck/self-delusion/blind money-desire and 20% skills and ethics.

What blatant examples of this have you seen in your field of work?

Edit: this probably belongs in AH actually. Feel free to move.

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boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850809#Comment_120850809

Yes I think there are several things that make someone successful - and their base IQ is just a small part of that. Lots of folk are very smart but unambitious, sceptical of everything, slow to take chances, a little too introverted, prone to retrospection ... The key to driving forwards in a given career is often a mix of several different qualities, both good and bad, and perhaps little is down to basic 'intelligence'.

[Deleted User]

As you go on you see that the world and business don't operate like they probably should.

You definitely have very successful people that are not very intelligent. They might have been lucky, might be well connected, might have abilities that someone else put more emphasis on than was due. The opposite is also true, there are extremely intelligent, able people who spend their lives toiling in very menial jobs, way below their capabilities. They weren't encouraged at the right time or were unlucky or circumstances forced them to stay still.

I would have employed a lot of people over the years and had some quite big companies. It might sound immodest, but I know people sometimes want to hear the secret of my success. In reality it was luck, I was in a strange place and had nothing to do but work so I worked a lot, made some money and started my own small company at the exact moment the city was beginning a huge housing boom. I had fantastic luck, I did work hard at the start, but in large part because i had little else to do as I didn't drink and other lads were doing a lot of that.

My brother got the farm and worked in a factory in Shannon. If he wasn't going to get the land and was going to London he'd probably have done what I did and if I stayed at home I'd probably have done what he did.

michaelcwyatt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863258#Comment_120863258

By the way, I really just remembered that at my former job there was a situation when a person was promoted because his mother-in-law was in a managerial position. However, in my opinion, he deserved this position, because he was really a professional, but to be honest, he would have to spend a lot more time getting it. But again, the main thing for the company is money, he helped it get it.

michaelcwyatt

Well, yeah sometimes ambition and self-promotion could have an impact on getting management positions, but I have never seen a stupid person in a management position who did not know how to bring more money to the company. And this is the most important thing - bring money. lots of money.

Flinty997

I think it's rare you find a manager who is technically poor at their job. More it's their personality that just doesn't work in the role. Perhaps it's worked to this point, but had reached is limit. Which I guess is the same point your making.

It's like a mountaineer whose stubbornness gets them to the top of a mountain, but also gets them out of their depth and into danger because they won't back down. Same trait works to a point.

I think that's different to being inept in a role.

FortuneChip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865819#Comment_120865819

I'm not suggesting this is the sole piece at play, I'm just using it as a one counter to the OP's suggestion that it's "dummies" on big money, but it's possibly a case of people earning their rise in the ranks only to find themselves in a position that no longer suits their strengths. Your IT example being pretty apt.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865823#Comment_120865823

Occasionally you get a programmer who is a good manager, but a lot aren't. At least in my experience.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865777#Comment_120865777

Ya my experience is the same IT programmers have little management skills.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865624#Comment_120865624

I only partially agree with this. Some people are very good in their role, their niche and no desire to move from it. In IT this could a programmer who wants to code, not be a manager. Could be a craftsman who want to do their craft not be a manager of business. On the other hand you do meet people who get promoted into a role and just struggle with it. But how do you know unless you try. Some of it is company culture. Some with struggle in one company, thrive in another.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865624#Comment_120865624

Politics is the one domain where the Peter Principle doesn’t apply. They have to reinterview for their job with an interview panel of thousands every five years or so.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863468#Comment_120863468

I think there are plenty of hiding places today.

A lot of senior managers are not are very good at self promotion. Some are good at their job, many are not. But that they got where they got to you have to given them credit for it, even if they are mediocre at their job. Some are excellent though.

Flinty997

In my experience many IT managers are/were programmers and while they are a great programmer they are woeful managers.

chrisd2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304935/dummies-on-big-money

In my experience, from my career at work in various public and private sector companies since the 1990, the title, level in the organisation and salary, often have nothing to do with the work ability or intelligence of the person. Quite often it is long service, being in the right place at the right time or underhanded/intimidation that got the person the big bucks!

zg3409

Firstly I find many management type people act very differently to higher ups than lower downs. They will jump through hoops to look well to higher ups, "recalculating" results to make them look better, ensuring any whim is acted on. Then below them they will seem unkind and harsh, but they probably need to be to manage and get the lower levels to get the work done.

I have seen totally useless managers in semi state or quangos where they got the job through connections and doing any actual work is not really needed by the organisation instead being a "yes" man and not hanging out upper levels is what is needed. They don't care about anything lower not even taking a fake interest.

Definitely family or business networking can have a big impact, particularly outside cities.

Often people managers don't have or dont need to have great technical ability nor be the technical best, instead they need to manage the people above and below them to get them to do the work and then they try take praise.

It's actually very hard being in a management position in many companies, as the job varies so much from office politics, to impossible to control employees and unions, problems out of their control and unrealistic deadlines or demands.

Often the clever ones are looking out 2-5 years at when the next higher level vacancy will come up and sweet taking their way into being considered for the role.

In IT or software often the managers can be paid less than employees as they have not the specialist technical skills needed such as good programming. Instead they are project and people managers.

FortuneChip

Peter Principle, particularly in Politics.

People keep rising the ranks until they exceed their level of competence and then they just loiter there.

Someone is competent at their role, and they earn promotion to another role. This role may require utilising new skills. The person may be competent at these new skills, and thus earn a further promotion. Eventually, they'll rise the ranks high enough to a point where they can't adapt to the new skill requirements, and they just end up stuck there; blocking more high-skilled people from ascending.

Spoofing, cronyism and nepotism can skew the results.

BrianD3

Cronyism and nepotism are natural human behaviours and given the small size of Ireland and the historically poor employment situation, things may be particularly bad here. Life is not a meritocracy and instead of the cream rising to the top, often the connected and the ruthless rise to the top.

Also, see how many current and former GAA and rugby players do very well for themselves, they are hero worshipped by idiots, usually up to their necks in women and "looked after" for jobs from a young age. Were they the best person for the job? Some of them are absolute pricks.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863468#Comment_120863468

Parents will still look out for their kids

How many companies out there have bosses kids running them

Professions like law firms accounting etc all the same

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863258#Comment_120863258

I think the op is talking about today, not the past, very few hiding places today.

Beasty

I have worked for a tyrant in a FTSE100 company, who got his job through inheritance

I have seen executives in substantial organisations raking it in through their "special arrangements" with suppliers

I have seen people promoted because they shout loudest

Fortunately most of that was in the 20th century. Things have changed and continue to change. Yes people still get somewhere by who they know rather than what they know, but they are the ones caught out through negligence or incompetence. I have seen massive improvements in Corporate Governance in the past 15 years or so. It is taking time to trickle down, but things are way better now that they were 40+ years agon when I set out in my career

[Deleted User]

There’s a lot of professions where salaries have grown substantially in the past few years. Software development, cybersecurity consultants, accountants, management consultants, airline leasing professionals. There’d be a surprising percentage of people in their late 20’s/early 30’s already on 100k plus, especially if they work in the IFSC, D2 or D4.

The vast majority of these people are on that salary because they are intelligent, driven and hard-working. They will also tend to be able to make decisions quickly, have excellent interpersonal skills, and have a clear 5,10 and 20 year plan.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851724#Comment_120851724

Look as nice an idea as it is, this pull yourself up by your boot strings is rare in comparison to the others

Now the thread is to question how all these dummy's end up in high places and this is the answer

It's not just hard work on their parts

Rte is an example of somewhere this is as bad as it gets

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851633#Comment_120851633

A fair point about tubridy, but i was talking about c-suite level people. Also plenty of people get on without the family connections as and plenty of people with family connections get nowhere. So a bit simplistic to say people are just born into these high powered positions.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851358#Comment_120851358

the issue is that this networking happens from the cradle, if you dont go to clongowes you will never get in with the merchant princes etc

these are the useless ones

the one who graft there way up with hard work aint

RYAN is the perfect example, do you ever question how you arent on stupid money in RTE but somehow he is

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851306#Comment_120851306

...this is more or less narcissism.....

...and yes, its common within institutions that have been left largely unchecked for long periods of time, a similar problem is currently occurring within the hse, we need to move this whole process of scrutiny into there next!

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851431#Comment_120851431

So who did he know then? I am fairly sure that aren't handing out MBAs to idiots, plus if all it takes is spoofing why aren't more doing it?

Swaine

It's who you know not what you know.

Paul Reid a great example of this. A spoofer.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851358#Comment_120851358

Not all need to be like that but it's rare to get on without networking and politicking, another skill I admire is the ability to be friendly with everyone but friends with no one ( in a work situation ) but do it in a way that's not obvious that is the skill.

StupidLikeAFox

It's hilarious when people say "they only got there through networking and politicking" as if that isn't a core skill for operating at this level.

EchoIndia

Not making excuses for anyone in RTE, but put anyone in the pressurised surroundings of an Oireachtas committee, with questions being fired at them on a very messy set of issues and limited opportunities to give proper replies, and they will rarely come well out of it. The great majority of people in the country are not in jobs where their performance is publicly scrutinised in front of politicians, the media and the public. It's worth asking yourself "how would I do in that situation?" The honest answer is probably "not as well as I might like to think".

take everything

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Midwit

Basically, people who are above average intelligence but where the Dunning-Kruger effect is pretty big.

So, they've gone to university and get to know stuff in their little silo, but when you probe deeper/ask difficult questions, they kinda don't understand things properly or how things are connected globally.

I often find this goes along with a self-delusion/lack of emotional intelligence. But that lack of emotional intelligence/self-awareness can often be quite self-serving/protective especially if you can get a lot of not so bright people thinking you're amazing.

And this basically happens everywhere.