nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Time to dump Irish

Bobtheman

I see it's in the news again. Various groups giving out about the curriculum

Im sure it's justified their complaints but I think it's time to realise that after 100 years we have failed to revive the language despite it being mandatory in school.

Someone could land in Ireland and spend a year here and not hear a word of it spoken.

It's mainly a make work scheme for people with Irish degrees.

I think after primary level it should be totally voluntary. Give extra points for LC etc but otherwise make it voluntary with a reformed curriculum.

Yes I know there are people who genuinely love and speak the language for a couple of hours a day but you are under 2% of the population.

The people have spoken and it's English.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418675#Comment_120418675

I sorta agree.

I think a happy medium would be to at least have a mandatory introduction to it. Say up to Junior Cert, and keep it light and interesting. Try to encourage interest and a regard for it's importance.

Official status is important in this regard but interest groups nshouldn't take this as a way to force it on anyone.

mailforkev

My wife's siblings are mostly teachers (married to other teachers) and speak it a bit at home, kids in gaelscoils. They're very "Irish" in general, names in Irish, gaelscoil educated, into GAA, trad music, friends all civil servants etc. Big love for the language.

Apart from them, since I left school in 1997, the national anthem at a match in the Aviva is the only time I ever hear the Irish language.

I overheard a guy speaking in Irish to his kid in a hardware store about 15 years ago. It was so unusual to me at the time that I still remember where it was and what he looked like.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418726#Comment_120418726

Maybe it's because we have a couple of very active Gael Scoilenna here but I hear Irish being spoken quite a lot here on the Monaghan/Fermanagh border. Big Brazilian pop here too as well as several European ones working the local factories. Quite the mix of languages if you listen out for them.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418601#Comment_120418601

It is our language.

Not sure anyone would walk into another country in the World and say that dumping the national language is "banal"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418726#Comment_120418726

Yes reintroducing the language outside of the class room is something we should be working on

redlough

Dropping the Irish language is just the latest in a long line of taking the easy way out. Instead of the population getting more intelligent we hit the peak a few years ago and now we are on a downward trend.

Exams have to be easier. Teachers have to be nice all the time or get reported. Hard subject should be dropped or if not dropped make sure everyone passes so it looks good.

Now instead of trying to implement the national language, at a time when everyone is going on about creating a United Ireland, we want to drop it. Why? well because it is a little bit hard.

We have developed a nation full of overweight lazy people and instead of trying to fix that we are trying to make it easier for them. What next? oh we should drop physics because that is hard?

Looking at it from an international point of view, you have people coming to Ireland with 3-4 languages and then taking on english and becoming fluent. Kids who can flick from one language to another. Yet the Irish, oh no that's too hard, we can speak English and anything after that should be dropped. Crazy stuff and such a backward step.We should be adding more languages not reducing them

spurious

Offer 50 euro for every word of Irish people can remember and watch a miracle happen.

SteM

I can only go on what I see but we have a 10 year old in the house and he'll happily do his maths and English spellings homework but he almost shuts down when it comes to Irish homework. He does it but it's a real chore to get through. I think he likes maths because he can relate a lot of what they learn to his life around him - saving money, sharing things, telling time etc and he can see some benefit. With Irish he sees it as something that has to be filled in and then forgotten about. He's done 1 hour of French a week after school for the last year and I've probably heard him say more French words conversationally then he ever has Irish.

Part of the problem is there's no one in the house that can help him. My wife is English but grew up in France and can speak fluent French, and I haven't spoken Irish since I did my Leaving Cert 33 years ago so I'm usually stumped when he asks me a question, Google Translate to the rescue. Also, his teacher is from Donegal and I know for a fact that some of the words he tells me are pronounced differently to the way I remember learning them.

mailforkev

Although it is/was taught awfully, the main issue many people have is not that it's difficult, it's that it's pointless.

Nobody related to me has spoken Irish for hundreds of years, our national language is very much English. Whether this is right or wrong is another issue but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418770#Comment_120418770

You have a point and that is a trend.

The imposition of wellness is such a sign. We have wellness coming out our backsides but if a kid has anything seriously wrong with them we have no psychologists to send them to?

But I think it's unfair to call the entire race lazy.

As to Irish you seem to be suggesting we just keep with it because it's tough

I would argue that we don't need it to function as a society so why keep doing it?

It is a national language in name only

Hardly anyone wants to speak it so why impose it?

A lot of the languages you mentioned are in use. Thus learning them is practical

You would have to drive a great distance to find a community that speaks Irish. Where you'd feel at a loss without Irish.

As to the north - really? What proportion speak it up there? How many protestants?!

whisky_galore

Say for the sake of argument; if GAA games, Irish dancing or playing an Irish trad instrument were turned into mandatory subjects and the only reason for doing so was that they're 'arr culchur'.

All of those things would become deeply unpopular and resented by those who are not the remotest bit interested in them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418910#Comment_120418910

Why the derogatory 'arr culchur'?

That is very revealing to be honest. I'll never understand why people get their backs up about pride in what is a rich and varied heritage. Fair enough, it doesn't interest you, but why demean those who are.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418635#Comment_120418635

Of course it's not a bad thing for people to have an interest in our culture & history. But as you know, my objections surround the manner in which the state has sought to legislate for the constitutional pre eminence of Irish as the first language. This is delusional, it might be a nice aspiration but that's the sum of it.

Take trad music, I like to play a few tunes. I grew up hearing the odd few tunes on radio, then Planxty and the Bothy Band etc. It'd be in your mind in that way. When our own were young, they did whistle lessons after school and I took it up from there. Everything I've learnt since then is for the grá of the music. There was no compulsion to learn, on either me or our children. But of course I can't just rock up to the neighbour and whip out the instrument and expect them to like it or play along. I have to go to people or places where I know there'll be others with a similar interest. The state doesn't give extra benefits and jobs to people who play trad. It doesn't oblige there to be trad music played as well as all the other various music genres. It's not artificially on a life support machine.

That's how the state and education system should handle the language for the great many ordinary community and other schools outside the Gael Scoil movement. An introduction to all matters of Irish heritage & culture - not just the narrow matter of language. Fund or facilitate local community groups to set up spaces/ events where citizens can go to speak the cupla focail. And just let people on with it, if they have the liking for it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418987#Comment_120418987

In broad agreement there Furze, I think one of the mistakes made is the mandatory aspect and it needs addressing.

A knowledge of Irish is a tremendous thing when it comes to music and our literary heritage.

jucko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120417624#Comment_120417624

here here!!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418755#Comment_120418755

Firstly, I never said the language was banal, I said the reason was.

And the reason is valid: people assume because it's their language that everyone else born in the same MUST feel the same way.

Well let me ask you something: did you ask everyone else? How do you know it's their language? They might feel no connection with it whatsoever. And if it is their language why aren't the learning how to speak it? Why isn't it mandatory, full stop? Even if it is their language, why does it magically stop being so when they leave school?

For that flawed logic, the reason IS banal.

intorduction in primary school and other ideas like outside promotion I'm totally for, but you can't go round arrogantly telling everyone what is and is not their anything.

EDIT - you mention easier exams: how about scrapping exams altogether? Make it enjoyable and less pressurised and people will actually WANT to learn it.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419072#Comment_120419072

"How do you know it's their language?"

Good point. My family has Scottish ancestry. So it's quite possible that nobody in my bloodline ever spoke it.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418898#Comment_120418898

But at the moment Irish is the increase, the Irish schools are on the increase and the ability to teach it is a lot better than years ago. We should be pushing it out more and not taking the easy option and just throwing hands in air and giving up.

In terms of not lazy, yes sorry you are correct it was a blanket statement which is not correct, but a lot of the population are very lazy, just look at the oncoming weight issues which we just ignore now instead of trying to resolve. A health crisis which will hit in years. The answer to all questions now seems to be take the easy option. Hard work we should just cancel.

I mentioned a United Ireland and the push that is going on. Yet at the same time people want to move more away from Irish, not sure what religion has to do with it.

_CreeD_

Not wanting to learn Irish has nothing to do with laziness or a lack of intelligence. It is in practical terms useless. If you want to learn it as an art fair enough, fully supportive but since language is a tool for communication Irish is essentially broken - and trying to force people to speak it just to reverse that trend inside our tiny little country is pointless.

The people in other countries that speak multiple languages usually do so because their national language is still commonly in use and English as a second makes sense as the de-facto business language and effectively the common language of the internet. If we were all still fluently speaking Irish and we were talking about pulling it that would make your points above valid. But we don't, so there is no logical connection.

As for the constant claiming of 'it's our language'. Why? Because it has the label Irish on it? Because it was spoken widely hundreds of years ago? Our language is the one that is spoken most commonly in the country today. And for better or worse that's English.

Again if you want to argue on the cultural side fair enough but it's laughable to try and associate intelligence with wanting to forcefully mainstream a dead language at the cost of other more relevant subjects students could choose to study.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419072#Comment_120419072

Do you go to Poland/France/Germany etc etc and ask if it's their language. Ireland is a country and Irish is our language. If you don't want to use it that is a personal decision.

You can repeat "banal" all you want but it doesn't change Irish is the language of Ireland, which was attempted to be driven out of Ireland by an oppressor. Instead of trying to reverse what happened our ancestors we now have people doing the job of the oppressor and saying we should remove the last few bits of our nationality.

In terms of arrogance, it wasn't me who suggested a country's language should be regarded as "banal".

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419072#Comment_120419072

In regards to the last edit. EDIT - you mention easier exams: how about scrapping exams altogether? Make it enjoyable and less pressurised and people will actually WANT to learn it.

It might amaze you but people do want to learn. Some don't.Removing exams won't change that. Just makes it easier for the people who don't want to learn to try drag everyone else down with them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419112#Comment_120419112

By 'practical' do you mean it can't be monetised?

A huge amount of the population won't have any practical use for a lot of the maths we are forced to learn. I've managed life quite fine without using alegbra or trigonometry in any 'practical' setting and many people do too. Similarly, Chaucer and John Donne etc have not really come to the rescue too often either, 'practically', I'm glad I was made study them though, because it was enriching in a broad sense and primary and secondary education shouldn't ever lose sight of that as a goal/outcome.

AyeGer

Let it be offered as an option for those interested. Vast majority clearly not interested in it otherwise we would have far more fluent irish speakers.

_CreeD_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419168#Comment_120419168

By practical I mean can it serve it's function, which is communication. And Irish does not (the very fact that we're having this and previous similar discussions in English is kinda proving that point :) )

I do agree with you on your comments on Maths and other topics. I think we should still teach generics up until mid level and then allow people to specialise as much as they want beyond. That includes choices in arts and literature being just as valid as mathematics, science etc. The key there being choice.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419285#Comment_120419285

That's not the only fuction of a language. 'Understanding' is another one. 'Appreciation' another.

Being able to read primary text, understand lyrics as they were written is something to be cherished and leads to greater appreciation. Which is a practical thing for many people.

_CreeD_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419325#Comment_120419325

[pedantic]

Understanding and Appreciation are higher functions, based on processing the information communicated via the language. They're not reliant on the language used so long as that language was shared between the parties.

[/pedantic]

TL;DR

Being able to understand words does not guarantee understanding of the concept or even appreciation of it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419346#Comment_120419346

Not sure I get your point.

Of course, being able to read things in the language they were written may lead to you appreciating them less, but you'll know why that is.

If you don't understand it in the language it is written you have less chance via a translation unless the translator dumbs it down in the process.

Cúirt an Mheon-Oíche/The Midnight Court for instance is a much richer and consequently rewarding read than the translation.

The original loses by being translated.

Emblematic

No need to dump it wholesale. This would never happen anyway for political reasons.

Instead, make it optional after a certain point in the educational system. Then those who want to continue with it can do so freely.

Doing this would probably improve actual spoken use of Irish in the country as there would not be the same level of resendment towards it among those who were forced to attend classes but had no interest in the subject.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419606#Comment_120419606

It is optional already and you can apply for an exemption for primary and secondary school

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419130#Comment_120419130

That's my point - I don't go ANYWHERE and tell ANYONE that. it's not for me to decide.

And - for the second time - I wasn't me who suggested a country's langauge should be regarded as banal either and you know that because I've pointed it out to you before - so take that up with whoever did say it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419156#Comment_120419156

I doesn't amaze me at all. If someone doesn't want to learn it, they don't want to learn it. Either make it something they do want to learn or focus your energies on people who do.

This isn's a binary 'hate it and drop it' or 'love it and make everyone do it' argument.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419623#Comment_120419623

You can, but it'll be refused unless you're fall under very specific criteria. It's only optional in that you can simply refuse to turn up for class and focus o the other subjects.