After what the poor innocent Hayes family went through and they (the real parents) just stayed silent, so shameful and disgraceful
So whats your opinion on the people who covered up a babies murder seeing as this is the topic of this thread?
They will be named anyway if any charges are brought.
I get the impression at this stage that everybody locally knows who the scumbag murdering family are and this is putting an end to their cover story.
True, but there are at least two crimes in play here: 1) the murder of baby John and 2) aiding/ abetting and concealment of information that could have led to a successful prosecution.
The first may never be solved but there are almost certainly people still alive who are guilty of orchestrating the latter.
Can they be charged with abandonment of a child at least, is that a thing, this case really makes me mad, no matter the circumstances I think I'd slap the parents if I meet them
It's hardly about you.
I don't know what they could be charged with tbh, but there is a chance their baby was forcibly removed from one or both of them and they were frightened into keeping quiet.
Joanne Hayes was coerced into admitting murdering a baby that wasn't hers, so I'll reserve judgement until I know the full facts.
Despicable.
But I'm not defending them. You're defending the church.
How do you know that?
For context they were named on the thread earlier, including other family details given, like occupations.
The post was deleted.
I've no problem with them being named, if/once charged.
No idea how you came to that conclusion, I'm pointing out that no priest told the people involved to murder a baby and throw his body away.
I couldn't care less what you say about the church so no need to put words in my mouth.
How do you know they abandoned the baby? She may have been told by her parents that the baby died soon after birth, or had been adopted, in order to coerce her into moving on with her life. I know of a case where this happened… the girl was told her baby had died but in fact it was secretly given up for adoption by her parents. The child tracked down the mother many years later and the truth only came out then.
We don’t know what happened here.
Withholding information about a crime?
I mean, plenty of people are charged with accessory to murder or withholding info - it is not like this case got no coverage over the last 40 years. If they were "living in fear", surely that would have ended once the death of the grandfather occurred, which was a good few years ago if what is reported is accurate.
The Catholic Church had it's role to play in the societal constraints of the times but the vindictiveness, spitefulness and nastiness abundant in a large proportion of Irish society wallowed in using these constraints as a way to demoralize, criticize and point the finger at those who went outside the societal norms and these people are worse than the church.
Yes, as we saw during covid, nothing has changed, these people are still all too common. As has been said, these intense pressures do not justify what happened. The climate of fear provided an environment for a successful cover up but a person did that terrible thing that most could never do.
That is a possible scenario. But given that the case was the talk of the country back in 1984, the natural parents couldn't have been under any illusions that they might somehow be involved in it and that it was their child. And to then witness another innocent family dragged through the mire, whilst keeping schtum would be damning.
I think more may well come out of this yet though and we'll see the shoddy edifice of deceit brought down and exposed.
The most bizarre thing about it was that while society condemned the single mother, the father of the baby got away scot free. And it wasn’t just men sticking up for men, it was the way things were. Women didn’t rally together to expose them either. And then they got on with their lives with no consequences, no stigma, no accountability.
So, the parent was told by whoever was present at the birth, that their child was stillborn or adopted and it was taken away, 3 days later a 3 day old baby was found stabbed to death on a local beach, and the first inkling they had was 40 years later when they got a knock on the door?
You couldn't care less?
That's odd, seeing as it was you who took issue with my post about a priest preaching about the parents today, but grand so. It looked like you cared.
If you think the catholic church had 0% influence in what was going on back then, then you're deluding yourself.
But I'll leave it there.
There was an incredibly negative view of female sexuality, only a slut would enjoy sex. "Good" women thought of Ireland when having sex with their husbands and didn't have sex before marriage.
In that environment women who "fell" were ostracised and shamed, and if another woman dared to stick up for them they would have endured the same.
The father's got away "scot free" because they were the poor innocent victims beguiled by whores. That was the reality, and it wasn't that long ago.
Attitudes have changed, but it was the reality of the time.
Editing to add - that view was shared by both some men and some women.
That is true.
You always know local friends
Kerry solicitor Padraig O’Connell, who is representing the two people arrested, warned against “people jumping to conclusions”.
Speaking on RTE Radio One he said: “My concern is that, effectively, people are jumping to conclusions.
“That because somebody’s arrested, that they’re automatically in the frame for a very heinous crime.
“That is not so they are totally innocent. They must be presumed innocent.
“They have constitution natural justice protections, and due process must be undergone. So as far as I’m concerned, they’re totally innocent.
“They proclaim their innocence. And they’ve made absolutely no admissions whatsoever of criminality.”
The man and woman are understood to be a couple with adult children.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/solicitor-two-people-arrested-over-29550933
Does anyone know if people there were obliged to give the DNA sample which led to the arrest?
JP Liz V1, and your point is ???
The first one is near impossible to prosecute now without a confession. The second one, conceivably only the mother of the child could be prosecuted as she is the only person that we can conclusively state knew about the baby.
I can't see the DPP bringing a prosecution under those grounds. After all that's happened with this case, it would be as big a political mistake as it was for the AG to take on X
One paper reported this morning that Gardai got DNA samples from their bins.
I was thinking there might be adult children now. That could be very traumatic.
Is this really the case?
I'm not sure if obtaining DNA that way is even admissible in Ireland.
It was famously used to catch the Golden State Killer in the us a few years ago but even in parts of the US it is not allowed.
My own guess on how they came to identify the two was because they compared the 400 odd voluntary samples they took with that of Baby John and without a exact match they were able to narrow it down to an extended family and then age profiles within that extended famy lead them to the man in his 60s and woman in her 40s.
Don’t believe newspaper and was this a red top paper, how would these samples stand up in a court of law,
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