It’s possible (though unlikely) that the baby’s mother didn’t even know he was murdered… she could have been told he died shortly after birth or had been adopted. The actual killer may be dead .. or maybe not. There could be a lot of twists to this investigation.
The plot thickens ,the gossip is the
'grandparent of baby John was a member of the guard's as well as more family members!!'
Quelle surprise
From The Times;
"The woman was released from custody shortly before 7.30pm on Friday. The man was released early on Saturday morning. Gardaí said a file would now be prepared for the Director of Public Prosecutions.
The solicitor representing both, Padraig O’Connell, said his clients had protested their innocence throughout the interviews which were conducted with their legal representatives present.
“Obviously they are totally denying the allegation of murder, which is what they are arrested for,” he said.
So both have been released without charge and files sent to the DPP.
So the Gardai at this stage must have identified the parents of baby John through DNA and the arrests and questioning but don't have enough to charge them with his murder.
And that's fair enough, even though these may be the parents they may not have been the murders.
The actual murderers could have been older relatives long since dead.
By the time the DPP reviews the file it may well be a lesser charge for the two arrested this week.
Headline should read Man.
Link not updated.
Well said what a horrible justification for murdering a baby.
At no point did I say anything about the mother of the baby being responsible for the murder.
There was never a time in this country to any sane person where murdering a baby was preferential to being stigmatised, thats just a ridiculous thing to say and some sad attempt to justify or minimise the murder of a baby.
No this is misconception. That article is sampling contamination. There was loads of papers like that in 1990s. but they dont get published anymore as we can detect contamination now through methods like deamination and full genome sequencing. There are special cases like 2 million year old frozen DNA, but not 120 million year old DNA. Proteins maybe yes but not DNA
The fact that Hayes was coerced into admitting the murder makes you lose faith in the competence of the gardai of that time. This case was the biggest reputation damage to gardai in it's history. The west Cork murder a decade later makes you question any evidence the gardai collected then as they had a narrative in that case too that they needed evidence to fit. There was another case Grace Livingston in the early 90's where the Gardai had unfound narrative but still interrogated the husband as if they had evidence he did it..... but a hunch from an experienced garda seemed to go a long way back then.
Seems that it's yourself who wants to experience outrage over what was a tragic stillbirth in the Hayes family - unless you can prove different of course and overturn the findings of the courts in the process.
Most of that is fact, but you’ve worked in some opinion and you’re wrong on some points of detail.
There most certainly is an obligation to register deaths, since 1864. There is no obligation to register stillbirths, and there was no stillbirth register at the time. There’s no forensic evidence as to whether the Tralee baby was stillborn or died shortly after birth.
Theres also this statute, prohibiting concealment of births.
And, yes, there’s no point in pursuing those matters now. There’s also no point in assigning a significance to events that they don’t deserve.
Agreed. Your sitting in moral judgement is outrageous
Here's a fact for you - Joanne and her family received a state apology, a large financial compensation and an acknowledgement that her son died of natural causes in 2018.
Another fact - at the time of her son's death she was not obliged to register his death.
And another - Joanne was a single mother who had an affair with a married man and already had a child with him. In 1984 that made her an easy target.
And yet another fact, this one related to the state apology - Joanne was coerced into admitting she murdered "her son", but DNA has proven she was not baby John's mother.
It's time Joanne and the Hayes family were left out of this, their lives have been impacted enough.
I think it’s more that you want to experience moral outrage. I’m just noting some facts that tend to go unmentioned.
Right ok. You want to sit in judgement.
A file is being prepared for the DPP, just adding this to give the full details, the DPP might conclude that there is no case to be answered.
My sister had a copy of that in the late 80s, borrowed from a friend I think, wish I'd had the chance to read it. A great one which is hard to find (but your library can get it) is Masterminds of the Right by Emily O'Reilly, exposing some of the absolutely scummy carry-on which was the norm in those days.
Well duh. Read the post you quoted. Many, probably most, suffered tutting and disapproval but for others it was ostracism or deprival of their livelihood. You're not exactly covering yourself in glory on this thread.
A number of people projecting their own issues onto this case.
A friend of mine had a baby in 1985 she later went on to marry the father and is still married to him while her family was not exactly thrilled there was no commendation I would describe the attitude at the time as more about just getting on with it.
There is no doubt that Ireland of the time was deeply misogynistic and that combine with the arrogant, corrupt behavior of the Garda brought about the whole issue. The Hayes seemed to have been somewhat vulnerable as a family and they may have been a factor as well. I love the fact that the Hayes family had the support of the community who quietly protested at the tribunal kindly hospitable people who stuck up for their own, that fact is often overlooked because it doesn't fit a narrative.
I’m setting out the Tribunals conclusions, which clearly stated that she’d no relationship to the Caherciveen Baby and that Gardai had concocted weird theories to connect her to that baby and that Gardai intimidated confessions out of her and her family.
Because I find some discussion of the case seems to forget that.
Just as it forgets that there was a second baby in a bag, thrown in a ditch on the Hayes’ farm.
Nonsense. The local community supported the Hayes family at the time during the Tribunal. Joanne was living in the community with her first child; no question of being forced into an institution. Totally cockeyed view of her situation, and completely different to underage Ann Lovett dying unattended in a grotto in Longford.
The book 'Two to Tango' by Maura Richards is an excellent read regarding what it was like back then for a single woman who was pregnant, hard to get but I bought one second hand few years back to give to my daughter to read after she was curious about Kerry Babies case. It is worth reading if you can find it in any libary.
The woman in her 50s that had been arrested has been released without charge.
but what has that to do with a baby who was stabbed 28 times and found on a beach 75km away from the Hayes family home the case was about the baby in cathersiveen which is the central point of the whole matter.
Then again that did'nt happen to everybody who did not follow doctrine but you keep on convincing yourself that it did.TBF its nonsense.
True, but if it is the parent's being questioned and they didn't kill their son they're in a situation where they need to tell what they know.
I'm not sure the truth will be known soon or ever.
Identifying the parents will not prove who killed the baby or why.
Nobody knows who murdered baby John either, but you seem convinced it was his mother.
In 1984 murdering a child born to an unmarried mother could well have been seen as preferable to the mother being stigmatised and her son being called a bastard.
You can't judge the past on the present, it was a very lonely time for these women, and the fathersof these children too.
The truth will likely be known soon and we can discuss the actual facts then. It's a very sad case, but hopefully baby John gets his own name and can rest in peace.
Can we drop the unmarried mothers nonsense.
Firstly nobody here knows the mother, so therefore doesn't know her marital status and secondly this is a **** murder. Being married or unmarried is no reason or defence for this crime.
No evidence whatsoever that Hayes or her family did anything wrong and the courts have backed them up on this matter.
No evidence that the child was born alive. Stillbirths were not reported or recorded then and treated the same as miscarriages are now, no requirement to record a burial, etc.
But yeah twist the knife in a family's grief from 40 years ago why don't you.
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