Sorry to hear your of your experiences, but that is not the experience of every unmarried mother.
Where did I claim it was? My only claim was you didn't know what your talking about, which I stand by. BTW back then it was unmarried mothers or deserted wives and the last M&B home to close was 1996.
The guards that forced a confession from Joanne seems to have got off Scot free…..
I imagine I'm a similar age to you and my mom had the exact same conversation with me.
I didn't fully understand it then but that was the jist of it.
Look, your experience is not the same for everyone,many others have had different and sometime positive experiences,just so you know.
Thanks Fr. I won't derail the tread any further, I've said my peace.
Look, sorry , did not mean to offend you if I did.I was relating some different experiences that I had close contact with and personal involvement.
I read a facinating article a few years back focussing on the beach. If memory serves me correctly, where John was found, he was in or near a NetNitrate bag (for the city slickers farming fertiliser). They brought in tidal experts to map currents over the previous days to see if a point of origin could be estimated. I think they estimated a general area - but nothing concrete.
As I'm here - I always felt that within certain parts of the community they knew more than their prayers. Rounding on Hayes (and what she did was wrong with her own child*) won't solve the case.
The desecration of the child's grave points to some knowledge/axe-grinding somewhere over the years.
*And, as an aside, I'm of a particular vintage to have known the 'stigma' associated with 'children outside marriage' in the 80's - it was shocking and reprehensible.
Everything, when the birth of a baby could be an occasion of shame instead of joy.
Sure, nobody could force you to follow a religious doctrine but if you didn't there were consequences. Maybe mild disapproval, maybe losing a job when unemployment was through the roof.
And neither are grounds for murder, not to mind a frenzied barbaric attack like this one. if it needed to be said.
No-one's experience is the same for everyone.
Stupid thing to say tbh.
No evidence whatsoever that Hayes or her family did anything wrong and the courts have backed them up on this matter.
No evidence that the child was born alive. Stillbirths were not reported or recorded then and treated the same as miscarriages are now, no requirement to record a burial, etc.
But yeah twist the knife in a family's grief from 40 years ago why don't you.
Can we drop the unmarried mothers nonsense.
Firstly nobody here knows the mother, so therefore doesn't know her marital status and secondly this is a **** murder. Being married or unmarried is no reason or defence for this crime.
Nobody knows who murdered baby John either, but you seem convinced it was his mother.
In 1984 murdering a child born to an unmarried mother could well have been seen as preferable to the mother being stigmatised and her son being called a bastard.
You can't judge the past on the present, it was a very lonely time for these women, and the fathersof these children too.
The truth will likely be known soon and we can discuss the actual facts then. It's a very sad case, but hopefully baby John gets his own name and can rest in peace.
I'm not sure the truth will be known soon or ever.
Identifying the parents will not prove who killed the baby or why.
True, but if it is the parent's being questioned and they didn't kill their son they're in a situation where they need to tell what they know.
Then again that did'nt happen to everybody who did not follow doctrine but you keep on convincing yourself that it did.TBF its nonsense.
but what has that to do with a baby who was stabbed 28 times and found on a beach 75km away from the Hayes family home the case was about the baby in cathersiveen which is the central point of the whole matter.
The woman in her 50s that had been arrested has been released without charge.
The book 'Two to Tango' by Maura Richards is an excellent read regarding what it was like back then for a single woman who was pregnant, hard to get but I bought one second hand few years back to give to my daughter to read after she was curious about Kerry Babies case. It is worth reading if you can find it in any libary.
Nonsense. The local community supported the Hayes family at the time during the Tribunal. Joanne was living in the community with her first child; no question of being forced into an institution. Totally cockeyed view of her situation, and completely different to underage Ann Lovett dying unattended in a grotto in Longford.
I’m setting out the Tribunals conclusions, which clearly stated that she’d no relationship to the Caherciveen Baby and that Gardai had concocted weird theories to connect her to that baby and that Gardai intimidated confessions out of her and her family.
Because I find some discussion of the case seems to forget that.
Just as it forgets that there was a second baby in a bag, thrown in a ditch on the Hayes’ farm.
A number of people projecting their own issues onto this case.
A friend of mine had a baby in 1985 she later went on to marry the father and is still married to him while her family was not exactly thrilled there was no commendation I would describe the attitude at the time as more about just getting on with it.
There is no doubt that Ireland of the time was deeply misogynistic and that combine with the arrogant, corrupt behavior of the Garda brought about the whole issue. The Hayes seemed to have been somewhat vulnerable as a family and they may have been a factor as well. I love the fact that the Hayes family had the support of the community who quietly protested at the tribunal kindly hospitable people who stuck up for their own, that fact is often overlooked because it doesn't fit a narrative.
Well duh. Read the post you quoted. Many, probably most, suffered tutting and disapproval but for others it was ostracism or deprival of their livelihood. You're not exactly covering yourself in glory on this thread.
My sister had a copy of that in the late 80s, borrowed from a friend I think, wish I'd had the chance to read it. A great one which is hard to find (but your library can get it) is Masterminds of the Right by Emily O'Reilly, exposing some of the absolutely scummy carry-on which was the norm in those days.
A file is being prepared for the DPP, just adding this to give the full details, the DPP might conclude that there is no case to be answered.
Right ok. You want to sit in judgement.
I think it’s more that you want to experience moral outrage. I’m just noting some facts that tend to go unmentioned.
Here's a fact for you - Joanne and her family received a state apology, a large financial compensation and an acknowledgement that her son died of natural causes in 2018.
Another fact - at the time of her son's death she was not obliged to register his death.
And another - Joanne was a single mother who had an affair with a married man and already had a child with him. In 1984 that made her an easy target.
And yet another fact, this one related to the state apology - Joanne was coerced into admitting she murdered "her son", but DNA has proven she was not baby John's mother.
It's time Joanne and the Hayes family were left out of this, their lives have been impacted enough.
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