Everyone could see it was a burial site and Reuters retracted their story, stop overplaying it
IZIUM, Ukraine, Sept 16 (Reuters) - The article slugged UKRAINE-CRISIS (WRAPUP 6) is wrong and has been withdrawn, because Reuters reporters did not see the bodies with rope around their necks
I think to the Rashists it's 'proof positive' the US has supplied troops and RuSSia is fighting Nato is all. Rashists being obsessed with race? I'd put that in the 'completely unsurprising' file.
But the story was updated and re released yesterday.
Bodies were found to be bound and showing signs of torture.
But no we are getting this nonsense of trying to down play under the guise of trying to be objective..
Reuters did not retract the substance of the story. They retracted that their stringer/reporter *saw* bound bodies.
They persist that it is a mass grave, and they persist that there are credible reports of bound bodies that were tortured.
I'll cut you a deal: As details of this war crime further emerge, if evidence shows this wasn't a mass grave with tortured bodies interred, I'll eat a boiled shoe.
But when it does get confirmed that there was torture and bound bodies, you're going to get kicked up and down the thread for soft peddling war crimes until you have no option but to re-register under another fake ass "objective" chin stroking apologist account.
You have my word. And bless your trilby hat, you already know how this is going to go for you.
A piece in to-day's Guardian has an account of the Izium killings and also of the wider picture of civilian deaths (including murder of a lot of individuals - not just collateral damage):
Housfree says "stop overplaying it". How could you possibly overplay such a scale of mass-murder? I thought this sort of thing was defeated once and for all in 1945.
Quite a few well known far right and far left types on social media trying to claim no Russian atrocities took place in Izyum. This seems to be all about attempting to get their favourite regime off the hook.
AP News with footage of graves being disinterred. Grim viewing.
It's already went from mass grave with bodies hung, to burial site with some bodies bound (according to Ukrainian official). Until some international objective observers get there I will remain skeptical.
We have an informational war getting played by both sides as well.
very interesting, thanks👍
Very true. When I was in Russia, it happened regularly. They had patrols picking up the bodies of the homeless who got drunk , fell asleep and the cold killed them. Putin and his mafia cronies have managed to choke the life out of Russian society, where for every 1'000 births, you have 500 abortions, and alcohol is a major cause of death. People with no hope, and now they have the added "bonus" of paying for Putins war, and not only with their lives, but now financially as well. Industry large and small are being ordered to increase production in support of the military, but are not being paid extra for it.
What’s Russia doing with all their money… ‘spose propaganda ain’t cheap.
Just stop, it's completely pointless, only an Orc would be stupid enought to fall for your nonsense. France24 news has reporters live on the scene. They have reporters interviewing the prosecuters and investigators at the scene and are showing live coverage of some of the exhumations. They are now saying that almost all the bodies show signs of torture. You and your fellow Russians can not downplay this, no amount of desperate BS is going to make this story go away or succeed at covering up the truth.
Maybe you should look up the definition. A mass grave is one grave with multiple bodies a burial site has multiple graves. Guess your no genius yourself!
And no need for your not so subtle threats
Then there is hypervelocity projectiles fired from 155mm artillery guns at mach 7
There is a mass grave, take your fingers out of your ears. I repeat, the civillians appear to have been burried individually, but they have found Ukrainian soldiers buried in a single pit, whose bodies show signs of torture. It's on the news.
There is no threat. You're being told what will happen. This soft-peddle fascist war crime apologist nonsense will be attached to your name from here on in, and it will follow you until you chuck in the towel and come back with another account trying to float the same tripe. And then the same thing will happen.
The United Nations has defines "a criminal mass grave as a burial site containing three or more victims of execution"
Can't believe I have to post that.
The die is cast, and there will be no let-up on you.
From what we can see, nobody is suggesting that all 400 bodies discovered in Izyum were victims of war crimes. But there are indications that at least some of them may have there as a result of atrocities. Zelensky indicated in his TV address last night that 17 Ukrainian soldiers discovered at the site appear to have been executed.
Doesn't make a difference how they were buried, it's how they died. Various reports of body's showing signs of torture, many appear to have a violent death.
If the Nazi's buried the bodies in individual graves with a mass etc... It makes no difference, it's still genocide.
If the Russians executed 400 civilians, that's a war crime. Even if other citizens tried bury them as respectful as possible, individual graves, crosses to mark the burial etc.... It's still a war crime by the Russians.
Giving the victims of a war crime a respectful burial doesn't not cancel the war crime.
Why are some people focusing on the term used (burial site, mass grave, mass of graves etc....) As some kind absolution of pretty obvious war crimes?
"If the Nazi's buried the bodies in individual graves with a mass etc... It makes no difference, it's still genocide."
Izyum also still a mass grave, by every definition. The Office of the Commissioner of Human Rights have a report on this taking the reader through the definition of the term mass grave.
Under every competing definition, what we see in Izyum is a mass grave. There is no room for dispute - save perhaps with those that want to provide shelter for fascism and murder.
The is poster is getting clobbered by me because he's attempting a soft-peddle and to chummy-up war crimes. He won't be let off the hook.
I believe the Ukrainians are planning for the winter war, but i have serious doubts the Russians are, in my mind i think they have a totally different view on everything. I know they have winter gear, but would not be surprised if they fight this winter in there summer uniforms.
They just cant seem to organize anything and wouldn't surprise me if having warm troops is bottom of there list of priorities
Life in Russia is cheap, there mindset is the same as Stallingrad, keep pouring troops forward no matter what, doesn't matter about the suffering, even if like now there's not much left in reserve
Going to be very interesting when the leaves are gone from the trees and all cover is gone, this is not like February, Ukraine's drone army is huge now
It's scummy that you would try to gloss over the mass murder of people, by trying to argue a technicality . I'd say the only reason that a lot of these graves are individual, is because they were killed over a long time frame. Probably after torture.
The winter gear Ukraine will get from the west will be of much better quality than what the Russians will have.
There's a self-regard in Russia that they are tougher than those in the West. That they can suffer better than other nations.
This generation of Russian men are not the same as those from the 40s, and they are not fighting an existential war, but an elective one for a KGB creep that fantasises about hagiographic chapters about himself in Russian history books.
Russians psychologically folded in Afghanistan. It's widely known that generation of men came back haunted by the Mujahadeen and remain f*cked up to this day.
Russians are the same as everyone else, they will break in the winter if they are not fighting with proper provisions and are being pummelled in a pointless war. It's inevitable. The war has turned in the last few weeks and there is no going back.
I'd go a bit further and say that even in the highly unlikely event that these innocents were not tortured then executed - they are still innocents murdered in an illegal invasion of a sovereign country by uncultured butchers - a war crime no matter how these apologists and trolls frame it.
I wouldn't blame them for being haunted. Some of the Russian soldiers were literally skinned alive. Very gruesome war especially when your not backed properly by your government or high command. Serious breakdown in russian hierarchy in the army not to mention food, clothes and weapons
Life is not as cheap as it was in Russia 80 years ago, as far as I can see. It's probably cheaper to the Russians than it would be in western Europe or the United States, but if it were just a case of robotically sending people to the front and have that be accepted by the Russian people, there wouldn't be a need for any propaganda in Russia to try and hide the true cost of the war so far. Putin could just have gone on TV and said that Russia is at war with Ukraine, and its western backers by proxy. Therefore he needs two million soldiers to swamp Ukraine and expects every eligible man across Russia, from the lowliest peasant to the wealthiest oligarch to sign up tomorrow. Obviously, that's not what he did. You can blame bad intelligence for a time - that Putin didn't think he'd need more than was sent - but Russia is still trying to manage the image of the war to their public even now and is still holding off on full mobilisation even now. That implies to me that he's afraid of the consequences if the realities of the war are brought home to the Russian people.
And that's not to mention that it's a lot easier to gain public support for a war if it's a fight for your own existence vs it being a foreign adventure fought at the behest of your rulers, and the latter is exactly what this war is for Russia.
Zinky Boys by Svetlana Alexievich is a good read.
It was patently absurd, the war was about 6 or 7 years old before Moscow acknowledged that it was even a war. By that stage about a million men had cycled through tours of duty in Afghanistan, with hundreds of thousands of them psychologically broken.
*The Zinky in the title is in reference to the zinc coffins dead troops were secretly sent back to the USSR in. Zinc because it was cheap and could be sealed effectively. And most amazingly, Russian bodies are being sent back from Ukraine in zinc coffins right this very day. A whole new generation of Zinky Boys.
looks like Iranian drones are proving effective.
He seems to be pretty balanced in his reporting.
Surprised though, I'd have thought Iranian drones to have been of low quality since they often copy and poorly reproduce it.
Well the big problem Russia has at it's core is demographics. It's not the USSR with seemingly endless resources of fighting age. They can't afford the losses.
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