How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
You're willing to accept a low ball offer, of 5% this year, and 5% next year, even though you must know that in truth that it should be a lot higher.
I see that as a lack of cojones.
The Government will walk into that meeting tomorrow and make a low ball offer, because they know people like you will just accept it, rather than play hard ball.
So much for "power in numbers".✊
Great post
The BS jobs, under David Graeber's definition, are those that could disappear and it would make no difference to anyone. I suggest you read his book on the subject. They are, of course, not limited to the public sector. Far from it. And one needn't look far to find lots of examples.
The putting in place of performance management systems most certainly does require a special cadre of administrators to run it. And that is but one of many auditing--generally defined--programmes. And the general point I'm making is: large parts of the public sector are overmanaged, not undermanaged. And overmanagement makes them less efficient, not more. But I'm guessing you are a manager of some sort... What's the line about the impossibility of making someone understand something when his pay packet depends on not understanding it?
As for the universities, they tend to keep this information close to the chest, but in 2010, in response to an Oireachtas query, the HEA put out figures showing, for example, that at UCD, 58% of staff were non-academic; at TCD it was 61%, at UCC 59%, etc. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the non-academic numbers have exploded while academic numbers (and ratios of academics to students) have declined in the years since. To be fair, this is a documented phenomenon throughout the West (see: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2KL1IU29MTKKA&keywords=the+all-administrative+university&qid=1661703037&sprefix=the+all-administrative+university%2Caps%2C50&sr=8-1).
You're disproving your own claim there. These initiatives are about embedding performance management into normal operations, so each line manager has an annual (at least) discussion with their employees about performance last year and plans for next year - the very essentials of performance management as seen in all kinds of businesses, large and small. It absolutely is not " all the public-sector staff whose entire job is devoted to auditing in various ways those who do the actual work". There is no 'auditing in various ways' here, just line managers managing the work of those who report to them.
What are the figures for our universities please? Which particular jobs are BS jobs?
I am part of a union because they represent me and there is strength in numbers. When deciding on whether to accept a deal, I consider my own position. There would be exceptions but not in this instances.
Can you explain how I don't have the cojones?
It's also not my responsibility to consider the effect it has on other people. At the end of the day, i only really care about my own pocket.
So why be a part of the union at all?
If all you care about is your own pocket, you'd save yourself money on the subscription fees.
If you reject the deal, people will be in a worse off position. Nothing will be done before the mega bills kick in.
I'll follow the guidance of the unions, is that not a sensible position to take? It's also not my responsibility to consider the effect it has on other people. At the end of the day, i only really care about my own pocket.
I can afford this winter with or without any pay increase.
So can I, but that's not the point. Not everyone can afford it. Inflation is running way ahead of pay and anything less is effectively a pay cut.
It's your vote, you can do what you want.
But maybe stop and consider those not in as comfortable position when casting your vote. Its easy to vote to accept from a position of comfort.
I don't agree that it is right. I agree wages should match inflation but the current situation isn't normal.
Also, how don't i have the "cojones"? I can afford this winter with or without any pay increase. I'm very lucky but i am not going to go on strike on principle when I don't think getting a better deal is realistic.
If the union recommends i accept the deal, i will. If they recommend i strike, I'll vote to strike. They are the experts and know if getting more is realistic or not.
And it will probably be accepted, because people like you haven't got the cojones to actually put up a real fight for what is right.
Is it? How much of an organisation like the HSE or UCD is made up of “bullshit jobs” and how much is the people actually delivering the service? I know that the figures for most of our universities are shocking.
I don't understand this attitude. I don't think there's a chance of 10% straight up. I still think it will be 5% this year and 5% next year.
The government will say energy prices are fueled by the war, are temporary (for 1? 2? years) and that other measures in the budget will compensate for that. It's a fair position to take.
Anything around 10% over two years is something i will vote yes for.
This is the most ridiculous take ive ever heard. Public sector auditing save a fortune. They literally carry out value for money audit. You really think public money spent by Aps and Pos shouldnt be tracked. Hahahaha
Your say-so doesn’t make it a fact.
Performance management in the HSE: https://healthservice.hse.ie/staff/procedures-guidelines/performance-achievement/
Performance management at UCD: https://www.ucd.ie/peopledevelopment/p4g/
I'm fairly familiar with some aspects of that programme. There are no audit functions involved, no inspections, no QA, no performance management, no extremely costly outside consultants.
New round of energy hikes expected:
35% increase in the price of electricity and 39% increase in gas from 1st October.
They better be coming to the table offering 10% from 1st October, straight off the top, otherwise I'll be voting against.
Enough is enough.
Anyone involved in QA, Performance management. These often involve extremely-costly outside consultants. You think this sort of thing runs itself?:
What jobs are you referring to here? The only auditors I encounter are the C&AG annual financial audit, same as any business would have.
Some insight ahead of the resumption of talks tomorrow.
Lol no they don't.
The boss doesn't arrive in some day and go "pay rises for all!"
This is exactly what happens in the public sector. It's a terrible system.
It rewards laziness as those who do sweet f all are treated the same as the workers.
And you see glimpses of it here. " well the nurses worked though a pandemic and the guards getting attacked during their duty- pay the public sector more says the lad or lady working bare minimum hours at home in theor pyjamas. Coattailing it's called.
We don't agree. Contrary to what you think, there are "piss-takers" in every workplace. And plenty of them get bonuses and pay rises. There is no evidence other than in the imagination of the public that the public sector has more of them than the private sector.
Maybe if people didn't come in and take the piss on the tax payers dime we would all be better off and wouldn't need the top heavy staff you mentioned?
Sounds like we both agree. So you can understand why some people might grumble these piss takers getting yet another pay rise on the coattails of the actual working public sector staff
The wasters, buffers at all level getting the same reward as those who do the work. This doesn't happen in the real world.
Now you might start to see
There are loads of jobs in the public sector that could easily be eliminated but that are there because people like you, amplified by the Indo, etc., demanded them. I'm referring to all the public-sector staff whose entire job is devoted to auditing in various ways those who do the actual work. These are probably the paper-pushers you have in mind. You think that finding out who is putting in "minimal effort" and firing them (were that possible) represents a savings. It doesn't, because you have to pay for an entire, expensive, auditing workforce just to accomplish that task. That's what's been going on at the HSE and in university administration. You end up with these top-heavy organisations with too many chiefs (proportionally) than indians. It's a bigger waste of money than the problem it's supposed to remedy.
It looks like the Government will make a straight up offer immediately upon resumption of the talks, so we should know tomorrow. It could all be done and dusted relatively quickly.
With the way this thread has gone it's not even that off topic. 🙄
Hopefully when the talks resume next week (?) it will focus discussion back on the key issue.
Things do seem to be escalating though, even in the past couple of weeks with energy prices etc. so the govt may be keen to tie this off before it gets worse and give a decent offer
Still a better contribution than the 3 stooges.
It would be more so aimed at those in offices and cubicles. People who just punch in the hours without being particularly productive and with minimal effort. Part of the furniture types.
The same people who hang on to the coattails of people doing a completely different role
It's shameful
Is there a full moon tonight?
Oh don't worry, if the **** ever hits the fan again like 2008, they'll be on the front page of the local rag with the poor me face blaming the public sector worker for all their problems.
Interesting, that article refers (correctly) to the 340,000 public servants in Ireland, yet the great fliball, who like literally knows everything about numbers and stuff, repeatedly throws about a figure of 400,000....makes you think 🤔
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