How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
That makes sense in fairness.
My point is that percentages don't work as they are unfair. Simply give an increase so that the gap between richer and poorer doesn't expand.
I'm not arguing for a higher amount increase for COs, I'm arguing for a higher percentage increase for COs so that the gap remains the same.
A similar amount as opposed to a fixed percentage would be fairest. E.g. a 1500 euro increase for everyone. The higher ups need not worry. You'll still be paid 30k more than the CO.
Me too. I have 7 staff reporting to me currently. So their pay should get closer to mine without the added tasks or responsibilities. it's a strange one. It needs to be a percentage across the board and I don't think any grades should miss out just to give another grade more. I do however believe that they can look at restructuring the CO grades. Perhaps have increments every at a shorter period than 12 months. Just an idea.
so how do you do it without discrimination?
I am middle grade in Public domain and the work I do is strategically more important than the lower grades. Thats just a fact not an ego thing.
Why should people who do less important work get a higher payrise?
But the gap has always been measured as a percentage. Otherwise there would be about a circa 1k difference between a CO and SG (as there presumably was at the foundation of the State).
In the reverse, while lower income are hit harder by inflation in percentage terms, in pure numbers the expenditure of the better paid increase more (as they have higher expenditure in the first place).
I think a lot of the public commentary was theatrics and muscle flexing. Talks continued informally behind the scenes and now we can see they were productive enough to allow the WRC to reconvene formal talks.
There will be a deal I'd say, the Government will not want industrial unrest going into what will be a difficult winter. Tax receipts have ballooned so the money is there irrespective of all the doom and gloom in discussions such as this. The State has been on the verge of catastrophe and economic collapse for well over two years now apparently.
A same percentage increase is grossly unfair on the lower grades. That means the gap widens, not stays the same.
If a CO on point 1 gets a 5% increase, a HEO on point 3 or higher is getting more money even if they only get a 2% increase.
Straight percentage increases across the board are a nonsense.
WRC invites government and unions to resume talks. Interesting development given that both sides seemed poles apart in public commentary
It has to be the same percentage across the board. If the CPSU was still the union of the lower paid CO's they might be successful in negotiating a higher percentage for their members. It's hard for Forsa to go back with a higher percentage for one grade than the other.
Everyone wa offered that deal. As I said, I assume in the new deal terms offered will be the same to everyone. Which is fair.
Higher pay for the lower paid has already been agreed upon for October. It's 1% or €500, whichever is greater. It was the same last in October 21.
Workload and responsibilities didn't change in 2021 and won't be changing this time around.
PER already did this a few years back, any HEO getting AP loses a day's leave and has to give up flexitime. (How's that for a supposed family-friendly employer? I'm actually surprised it wasn't challenged as indirect discrimination on family/gender grounds) and between that and the PITA interview process, for a lot of people it's just not worth bothering to apply.
TBH this was a clear agenda by PER to open up more "opportunities" at AP for outsiders and the unions just let them. PSEU couldn't really complain about changes to AP grade even though it's ultimately the only promotion outlet for their members. AHCPS didn't care as their existing members weren't affected.
You do realise there's a whole cohort of staff in the civil service below the clerical officer grade?
I don't think they should. But the claim was that the "bottom paid" should get the largest jncrease, I don't know ow what exactly "bottom paid" constitutes in actual terms.
And in alot of Departments that isn't the case.
Are you kidding? the most underpaid public servants are those working in IT.
It's entirely the intention of the usual suspects to destroy any thread which attempts to have a reasonable discussion of the public sector
This thread was going great until they showed up, and it's been worthless since.
I'm asking what is the figure where someone is considered lower paid or not. What's the cut off point. The original post made was that the poster would prefer to see a bigger increase at the bottom than for the middle and higher earners.
I don't think it's impossible, I do think it's unreasonable to give the bottom paid a pay increase at the expense of middle and hugger income earners. If the pay rates between the grades are going to narrrow then the workload and responsibilities also have to narrow. That's the only fair outcome.
IDK to be honest. I'm going to make an educated guess and say no.
That's why I think this could get messy. A CO or other low paid grade on 25K might be happy with 6 percent but an EO on 40k might not be happy with 4 percent and a HEO on 55k might not be happy with 3 percent etc.
You can see where this could go.
Do the COs outnumber the other grades in Fórsa or what are the numbers like?
In a lot of departments the only difference between EO and CO is the salary disparity not the work they do.
No Forsa. You could potentially have the middle and higher earners in Forsa being disgruntled if other grades were to get a higher percentage than them. A ballot for industrial action or the acceptance of a deal would hinge on this. The lower paid might be dragged out onto the pickets even though they are happy with the deal.
Why should EOs be exempt? If its targeted at lower grades then CO should get the largest proportional increase on a sliding scale up to SGs.
Then you'd just end up with AP/PO on strike and Fórsa not (or potentially both).
I'm surprised you found the time for it given your 10 year long crusade against public servants. Very sad.
Are you asking me for the exact figures of the governments next pay offer? Leo said they were looking at greater increases for lower paid so that's what we're speculating. What I or anyone else may speculate those figures to be is irrelevant.
If you think it's impossible or unreasonable or you simply can't understand how it could be implemented I'll remind you that the last pay deal offered 1% or €500, whichever was greater. This benefited lower paid. That's not to say that's how they'll do it this time, if they do it at all.
Okay, just so we are absolutely clear, what exact figure relates to the "very bottom" then?
Nobody is specifically talking about clerical officers. They're used as an example as they're on the lowest scale.
That shouldn't need to be spelled out to you.
I think it would be very unreasonable to expect their pay to narrow towards an EOs pay while not taking on any additionally responsibilities.
It would be very unreasonable to ask most clerical officers I know to add more work to their load.
It's not about them deserving more pay. It's about them struggling to put food on the table.
If clerical officers were getting a bigger increase its inly fair they in turn take on take on more responsibility and the work tasks they can be assigned is increased.
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