If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
And what benefits will Ireland provide to NATO? The US is already using Shannon, but that would have been far more useful in the 50's. NATO already has all the observation facilities they need, but a few radar stations would likely have been setup if Ireland had been a member initially.
As for now Ireland has nothing to offer, there is no vast supply of young men, no useful military capabilities, no particularly useful geographical location.
Most useful thing Ireland can be is a theoretical neutral negotiation partner.
Yurt, I have never let Putin off a hook and have said what he has done is worse than what NATO have done,
But the fact is Putin and several of the NATO alliance need one another. They feast and profit on conflict.
No conflict in the world, who loses? Follow the money, it is as vulgar and as simple as that and I want no part of that
Francie, my pulse didn't go up one bit dealing with you. You're Putinversteher antics are plain to see and I'm comfortable with labelling you that.
You fly the SF flag loud and proud day-in day-out in this forum, and you have the conceit to think that classic boilerplate and to-template letting Putin off-the-hook won't be picked up on, because in your world view "NATO simply must be as bad as him". That's the long and the short of it, and the more you persist with that a-historical guff, the deeper the hole you dig for yourself.
Yawn....anyone with a different opinion is a Putinversteher/Choamskylite or whatever demeaning invective you can come up with.
I'm having a nice evening. Get back to me tomorrow when you calm down
You're the first person I've told they've made a mug of themselves. A very special, if ignominious accolade. Congratulations, you've earned it.
Putinversteher. Weren't you here a few short days ago trying to make out that Sinn Fein doesn't have a Russia problem? They blatantly do, and you're evidence of it.
Yurt you have been telling people with a different opinion they are mugs since the start of the thread.
Like some self appointed oracle on speed, you value your opinion too highly.
I clarified, get over it.
At what only one Engaged in a War in a Sovereign nation. One is a defensive alliance of nations the other is not. Russia managed to Increase its NATO border massively. Sweden and Finland. They had no intention of joining NATO in the Status Quo. Someones actions lead to that and that's not NATO's.
Nobody who read this exchange misunderstood a thing. You made a mug of yourself.
"gameplaying" will apparently have to be filed under an animal noise you make when you're caught out for being a low-knowledge poster.
Two of them at it.
Russia signed a Deal In regards to Ukraine and Nuclear weapons. Wager they regret handing them over. Russia complains about NATO expansion While trying to expand its Boarder with NATO can't make it up.
I posted it as an example and clarified when you misunderstood.
If you can't accept that...nothing I can do.
I misunderstood nothing. You were asked for what you meant by "gameplaying" and like a hot snot went immediately for NATO excercises and "tension making".
You were given a history lesson on the fact NATO never conducted excercises near Russia prior to 2014 the Crimea invasion and Russia threatening the Baltic 3's airspace (I know you were ignorant of this so don't even try).
Then you scrambled back to "general gameplaying". We'll all just have to guess what that actually means. Chomsky-lite poppycock and you can't even take the L gracefully.
I have since talked about NATO expansion as part of the gameplaying and clarified what you misunderstood.
xxxxxxl asks why was Ukraine not in NATO, there is the prime example of gameplaying with peoples lives imo. They left Ukraine isolated to keep conflict/tension going. Ukraine in NATO and this wouldn't be happening as xxxxl says.
Ask yourself, who loses if there is no conflict, weapons or arms needed in the world?
I'm not letting you off the hook with that one Francie. I asked you for what you meant by "gameplaying" and you came back with military excercises as NATO's original sin. What do you think military defence treaties are actually for? Should armies be in their barracks playing FIFA all day or something?
Don't bother with correcting me. You're the one that walked yourself into displaying you don't know what you're on about. There was no misunderstanding of your posts.
Wer vulnerable because we live in a fairy world where we think we are immune to any and all acts of aggression, that these things only happen to other countries.
In the over all scheme of things we would be far better off in NATO than not, it's real tangible defense and guaranteed safety.
When did Ukraine join NATO ? If they had been in NATO none of this would be happening.
I sent you a long google list of war games Yurt. You thought I was only talking about excercises, I wasn't. Clarified again.
You don't like Choamsky, never read him myself, but many do like him, get over that as well. You don't OWN the discussion
Like I said, you made a mug of yourself.
You were asked for detail on your foggy notion of "gameplaying" and you went straight for NATO excercises near Russia. When it was pointed out to you there were no such excercises near Russia prior to them invading a sovereign state and threatening Baltic States' airspace, you reverted back to the nonsense opaque "general gameplaying" you started out with.
Like I said, it's boilerplate Chomsky-lite sh*te.
As part of the general gameplaying Yurt. If you misunderstood, consider it clarified. Now go and try wind somebody else up.
Aahahah. Poor Francie.
*YOU* explicitly brought up excercises, not me. Swallow it, it belongs to you.
I asked you for detail on "gameplaying".
Francie: NATO excercises near Russia.
Me: Eh Francie, NATO never did excercises anywhere near Russia prior to 2014 when they invaded Ukraine and started buzzing Baltic states airspace.
Francie: Here's a map of NATO "actions" prior to 2014
Me: Wakey wakey Francie, those are NATO treaty accessions, not excercises.
Francie: "Oh I actually mean *geopolitical* 'gameplaying', not military excercises"
You are thoroughly dishonest, and you've made a mug of yourself in this exchange.
Really worked for Ukraine Dyr.
You have a one dimensional view. I attemept to see it from both sides.
You mean the game where Russias former colonies want to be a part of military alliance so Russia doesnt invade them again? Yes indeed, a cunning NATO plot to have engineered 300 years of Russian imperialism before NATO existed
And you still call yourself a Nationalist no doubt, but like most of the Nationalists knocking about Ireland today, your worldview originated in a KGB think tank around 1948. Wise up there, Sean Garland.
You talked about 'excercises', I was talking about a geopolitical game they have played for decades,
Those are NATO enlargements not excercises Francie. Wise up. Once again, you've proved you have a very thin grasp of the facts.
See map and review NATO actions in 1999 and 2004 long before Russia entered Crimea.
I'm not 12 Yurt.
Two sides willy-
waving at each other for decades and it eventually ends up in bloodshed and war.
If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that until the annexation of Crimea and the events of 2014, with the direct security threat posed to Baltic states, NATO refrained for decades from conducting any and all excercises in Eastern Europe even vaguely near Russia.
Putin earned those excercises on his doorstep with his actions, and they were and are necessary from a practical point of view if worst came to worst, and as a deterrence. Prior to 2014, the US/UK had probably a few dozen people in Eastern Europe with a NATO hat on, and in office-bound roles.
Once again, you've proved yourself to be a prime-time Putinversteher. You've an unbelievable knack for it.
Ireland isn't credibly threatened Bob. Not buying the fantasy invasion scenarios.
And if they sail into international waters for excercises, they are challenging NATO and the EU. But if NATO conduct huge excersises on their borders they are 'just training'.
Boring Yurt, heard it all before, they have been at this for years before any annexation...willy waving/game playing for adults.
Lets get back to you being a good metaphor for Ireland.
I'm actually a good metaphor for Ireland, we don't go looking for fights or play games that will end up in fights.
The reality is your policy is to run away from anything that may result in a fight.
A friend is attacked - ignore it and hope they don't notice us. Ireland is threatened - ah sure the big boys will deal with it. Our way of life is threatened - do you know what it will cost to deal with it.
