How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
No read what I said its not just the deficit, its the debt, the servicing of the debt and the different tax models we have. Income tax has been hit over and over to the point where its hard to attract workers to come and work here from other countries. Corpo tax could be hit but if this truck of money moves from Ireland the IMF will be back in town pronto. I have said its about finding how to pay for it as its going to happen I would just like the government to be up front and tell us what way they are paying for it as I can only see one of three ways, will it be borrowed and left to our kids and grand kids, will we be paying more taxation or what services will be cut in order to pay this pay rises as there is no other way to finance this.
please stop repeating yourself in these long screeds i find it very hard to motivate myself to reread the points already made.
you did not answer the question.
you are the one insisting on the link between balanced books and wages in a competitive labour market so i feel if you cannt answer the question it may be difficult to take you very seriously
Never said anything about them not being paid while there is a deficit but when you add onto the deficit its a case of where do we get the money from? The magic money printers from the EU have been turned off, we are at full employment and already the one of the most if not the most progressive when it comes to income tax and already this issue is causing a lot of issues trying to get people to work in the country so this well cannot be hit again if anything the burden on income tax payers should be decreased and we are borrowing 4 billion this year alone without this extra expense as well as the little 250 Billion debt which will be costing more to service from July this year with the first of many interest rate rises to come. So you develop from there you show us how we do this and include the fact that it cannot be done without inflicting a lot of pain on other cohorts and you will get there good man.
should public servants be paid at all while the govt have a deficit?
if yes then why
now develop from there. youll get there good man
And you know that how, did you ask all of them? and I am talking the whole of the public sector.
The vast majority of Civil Servants would not vote for SF in a blue fit.
Yeah and FF/FG see the Sinn Fein written on the wall and are trying to buy the PS voting block and what does that actually mean to a government employee, does their pension get hit, they take a pay cut and go and sit in opposition. Its hardly being held to account
They ARE held to account. Every five years- general elections.
No its not but they still need to be held account for spending and borrowing. When our interest rates rise to 5% which it will at some point in the near term how how much will servicing that 250 Billion take from the coffers just to service not even paying any of it back? We know its not a business as if it where Ireland Inc would of hit the wall and gone into phucking receivership with the state of its accounts and with a looming recession to manage.
Governments aren’t businesses.
Surely affordability has to have some sway with regards to payrises, we cannot just keep kicking the debt and deficit can down the road and expect to have no impact, what we pay out in expenditure in this country is criminal with respect to the actual return we as a population see in return. We are already one of the most progressive with regards to income tax paying, we are heavily reliant on corpo taxes and the shortfall has to be borrowed I mean we are not even running a surplus at the moment and we have essentially full employment and if we have a similar drop in corpo taxation like we did with stamp duty back before 08 or the private sector gets decimated again then ps pay will have to cut again as there is no doubt the IMF are looking at us as they are the rest of the countries who were branded as the PIIGS with regards to our borrowing and our expenditure as the next recession is looming and it is coming. As I said wages in the PS are high in a lot of areas, jobs are guaranteed and with the pensions on offer (that are not there for the private sector) its already a massive burden on the future purse strings. Pay rises here will also add to this future burden. We also need more money for infrastructure, housing and a lot of other areas so do we just keep borrowing till we fall off the cliff and if our interest rates go back (already 2 rate hikes scheduled this year) to anywhere near where back in the 80s as in double digit (already over 5% in the U.S). All of a sudden our debt will be unsustainable and with all of that going on its depressing to see one group of ps employees on one side of the table (government) and one set on the other arguing how much more is to be paid with absolutely no thoughts on the knock on effects, its effectively ff/fg seeing the Sinn Fein written on the wall and trying to buy the ps vote just Bertie did per 08.
The goal of those employees is to help Tesco, BOI etc make a profit. They are meeting their goals, so perfect.
The goals of the PS are different.
The goal of a nurse is to care for patients? Do you think Nurses are not adequately caring for patients?
The goal of a teacher is to educate? Do you think our children are not receiving an adequate level of education?
The goal of a fireman is to put out fires. Of the council worker to clean the streets. Etc etc.
If we don't increase the pay for a public servant, the good ones will simply leave and the quality of those services will decline. Those in the public service don't care about public finances, because it is not their job to worry about the money, their job is to make our country a better place to live.
In their view, the government are nothing more than an employer. The fact that their employer is also responsible for managing public finances, for managing homelessness or the challenges in Ukraine is irrelevant.
The fact is both companies are making a profit so it is right to give the workers who are doing the job a pay increase and as a country we had to borrow this year what was it 4 billion what are we over 250 billion in debt but yeah while there is a glut of uncertainty and as interest rates rise the expense to service our debts as a country are going to balloon and a hell of a lot more pressing (housing, infrastructure) issues that need financing there should be zero pay rises going on until the likes Brexit, Ukraine and covid have gone away for good as if we do hit a recession and there is a waivering from our cropo tax take there will be a need to make pay cuts again. Just as an aside what happened to the USC being temporary where is my pay restoration (answers on the back of a post card on that one). We may not be a profit making enterprise but we sure as phuck have to pay ours debts and the can kicking of rolling over our debt for the last 12/13 years will squarely kick us in the ass in the next decade with rates going through the roof
is govt a profit making enterprise or are its aims and goals constituted around an entirely different modus operandi?
is this something a child needs explained to them more than once?
Did BOI, Tesco make a profit this over the last year, how much were either company borrowing?
they are far from "big pay rises" inflation is running at 8.5+%
right i accept that, but i dont think i can agree with you on what we mean by "big" payrises.
if these are multi year deals in times of big inflation- a govt can always hold the threat of big recession over us but the fact is that terms and conditions in the public sector have been under attack for over a decade and public servants have to deal with govt as employers sometimes, not as participants in the running of the state.
and furthermore, that employee/employer relationship is not similar to a mutual endeavour to maximise profits because that is not the business of govt.
"a bad job in good times, a good job in bad times" but that is less and less true and its now more of a case of "a bad but safe job in bad times, a bad job and dont dare expect any better in good times"
these are negotiations for pay increases on the foot of a decade long wait for pay restoration in an understaffed service for that whole time. public servants are rightly sick of being told to put the country first as a way of fingerwagging at us when we go to the table because successive governments have gone to that well too many times.
Yet no one batts an eyelid at Tesco, Bank of ireland, other private sector workers mentioned in the thread, getting 10% payrises and backdated to 2021, while they're at it.
Sick and tired of not been appreciated for the work we do, and being told we're screwing the country up if we look for payrises that aren't immediately swallowed up.
Especially after the last two years.
If I could retire today, I'd go gladly, and only for my income continuance plan, I'd cancel my union subscription (after 30+ years of membership).
I'm feeling really **** salty today, about all this.
Leo must be taking tips from the anti public sector brigade in this thread:
"The current agreement gives them an increase of between 2% and 3% a year this year plus increments if they get an increment."
RTE news : Govt intends to make further pay talks offer - Tánaiste
http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0622/1306224-pay-cost/
Looks like they’re going back in for further negotiations anyway. Probably needs to be wrapped up in the next 2-3 weeks before the summer economic statement https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0622/1306224-pay-cost/
Actually I was a public servant then and I do remember the pay rises through partnership including the 2008 deal (which was madness), benchmarking (remember that), and also suffered the significant pay cuts.
Pushing for high pay rises now and threatening industrial action will mean that politicians will be mandated by the rest of the country to punish public servants. And yes there is a big value to defined benefit pensions and job security.
Modest pay rises yes but big pay rises will be more trouble in the long run.
Heard it all before from Leo. A poor record on delivering on his words though.
Yes. Pay restoration going back to 2008. Lower paid got their restoration first which is what the unions negotiated.
FEMPI was constitutionally difficult - that difficulty provides safeguards for lower paid workers.
its almost as if:
- public sector pay isnt the only component in government expenditure and the workers in that sector need to argue for their terms and conditions to improve in inflationary times like everyone else regardless of whether some people think we have an onus to work for minimum wage across all grades and skillsets
- 2012 didn't happen (short memories indeed, a funny short memory that only remembers our pay increases and not subsequent ten year cuts- would you ever go swing ffs)
go analyse 2012-today vs general pay rises and inflation or do you only have one trick in one direction?
blatant
,Senior staff are to get 10% as part of restoration on 1 July. Something is seriously wrong with union negotiations when the far get fatter and the rest of us look forward to 1%
Hopefully these talks will be better weighted.
What is the value of job security going into a recession? If a recession happens - many households with private sector workers will be out of work.
If there are unsustainable pay increases then services will have to be cut and the playbook from 2010 will be rolled out and there will be pay cuts.
Everyone is facing higher costs and unfortunately most of us have to suck it up without getting pay increases and without that job security.
For those with a short memory or not around then…
Papers show 2008 pay deal agreed despite warnings on economy
if a global recession hits, I forecast (as does the fiscal advisory council) that corporation tax revenues and income tax revenues will take a massive hit (income tax by 20% and CT by 40%), which will then hit the consumption taxes. we will be back to spending beyond our means and the public sector pay bill will need to reduce in size - this can be through numbers and pay cuts - the latter will be more likely if public sector unions hold the Govt. over a barrel in these talks.
All in - be careful what you wish for.
The 2.5% next year is probably a bit insulting given that as part of the Building Momentum Agreement they gave 2% this year (and that was before all this inflation).
They’ll have to go with 3-3.5% at the very least next year. Best to extend only to end of next year too.
5% more over two years, followed, in the same article by:
'Difficult period' ahead, warns Ryan
Meanwhile, the Minister for the Environment has warned of a "difficult period" this autumn and winter as households struggle with the cost of energy.
Yeah, no kidding there is a difficult period ahead.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0621/1306024-public-pay-talks/
"We think that it was a very good offer and that it was a fair offer and also that it would have brought some extra benefits for lower paid public sector workers,"
Wonder what Minister means by the above? I guess 2.5%, with a minimum increase flat rate amount to lower paid? Hopefully that's the case.
I am perhaps biased but would agree with starting salaries being increased to higher percentage not so much to match inflation but to at least match market rates in private sector.
I'm starting in HEO role soon in Department of Finance. So I'm starting at €50,848. For this I'm leaving a job where I'm on 53k per annum with up to 10% bonus. However my current job does not have a pension.
Without any promotion to AP or higher I think I worked out it will take about 12 years to get same net pay, albeit difference isn't really as large considering the pension contributions included in public service job.
Nonetheless, with management experience going into the role assuming there not a larger recession, I could walk into a job on private sector on 65 to 70k with pension and healthcare. I'm even getting emails from companies looking to interview me for such jobs now without management experience.
I'm making the move for the experience it will provide and possible promotion opportunities along with greater sense of job security particularly should a recession occur. However, its delusional for anyone to think current salary grades are competitive as they are compared to private market. They are perhaps for lower grades but not for skilled workforce coming from finance, IT etc.
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