My goodness, I thought this level of virtue signalling had moved to the Ukraine threads
Each one of us in a society, directly or indirectly, contributes to that society. So, your idea is that everyone who has a different opinion to yourself (or others) should pack up and leave? Not a very productive statement.
There really isn't. Their death rate is better than lots of countries. Even if you want to cherry pick, we're still not talking large figures over a 2 year period.
Remember people on here were saying that Ireland would have deaths in 5 or 6 figures without lockdown. Sweden proved that was nonsense
Nope because those who didn't want to take the risk would be in self lockdown and those who weren't (i.e. elected to be 'freely circulating') were accepting the risks for themselves. The weaponization of virtue is alive and well I see.
Nope they didn't prove it. Nothing is as simple as you try to paint it in your posts.
Hospitals were overrun every year for at least 5 years every winter prior to COVID. We didn't lockdown then because care was in jeoprady.
And say what you like, but the restrictions were authoritarian and despotic (even McConkey labelled them as 'authoritarian')
I'm not the one living in society they don't agree with while looking wistfully at another one.
So you think we would have had deaths in 5 or 6 figures despite the data we have from countries that didn't lockdown and didn't have high death rates?
And despite the fact that we now have no restrictions and the death rate is not increasing.
As I said, nothing is that simple.
For this particular crisis, yes - I think they handled it in a more liberal manner that appeals to my liberal leanings. It's certainly preferable to a what Ireland was over the course of the lockdowns. I think you are understanding now that there are legitimate differences of opinions on this matter. The sooner that difference of opinion is accepted, the better it is for everyone.
People often need the help from others. They aren't independent.
If you do something that impacts that support you can tip a system into crisis.
That wouldn't occur to people not used to supporting others. Its about being aware of the society you exist in.
There is a measurable unnecessary cost in lives.
More than 17,000 people have died from or with COVID-19 in Sweden, far more per capita than among Nordic neighbours
They have double the population of Ireland at least. Double Irelands deaths.
Not a great deal of difference considering no lockdown Vs Europe's strictest lockdown. They also have an older population.
Were hospitals overrun every year for at least 5 years in Germany? France? Italy? Denmark? Canada? Australia? China?
We and other countries didn't lockdown then because the level of threat covid represented was of a whole other order, which is why the reaction here and elsewhere was different.
So which is it? Authoritarian or despotic? You cite one reference for authoritarian and then try to extend that to despotic. If the words are synonyms, why use both? If not...
You can say what you like but others can also say - when you abuse the meaning of words it's a pretty good sign you don't have a case.
These measures were implemented by democratic governments in accordance with their laws and constitutions, by elected representatives - not despots.
Sweden got away with their strategy to an extent, or rather, that their death toll wasn't worse, because they came into it with high ICU capacity, low population density, high numbers of single person households AND then were buttressed by the restrictions of their neighbours & the voluntary actions of their citizens. Scaling that up for New York, London, Paris or Europe wide would be a recipe for disaster.
were there any countries (or US states) that did not lockdown/had light restrictions, where the health service was totally overrun?
Sweden have a population of 10.5 million and had 18000 deaths.
Ireland has a population of 5 million and had 7000 deaths.
Double our deaths and add a few more for the extra half million and Sweden have about 3000 or so deaths more than us in a 2 year period.
They had no lockdown at all and older population.
Either Sweden is nowhere near as bad as some try to make out or Ireland's insanely strict lockdowns were a failure.
But you can't have it both ways because the data won't allow you to.
Excess deaths are measured on a yearly basis. They are not spread over a number of years to suit a narrative.
How did Sweden prove that was nonsense. Without lockdown they have had multiples of their near neighbours in excess deaths. Even for Ireland that is not anywhere near them geographically or historically the same is true.
spain and italy at the start?
I knew about Italy, prior to their lockdown (and as you say, at the start) - but I did not know that Spain was also? Aside from those two, as the pandemic progressed - did any of the areas without strong interventions experience collapse of health care?
Denmark, Finland, Norway. You know, the countries any intellectually honest assessment would compare Sweden to for starters.
I used the 'despotism' in a very loose manner, of course I am aware that Ireland is not a despotic state. I was making a comment that the rules were despotic. It was McConkey who labelled them authoritarian, and I cannot disagree with that point. I think you knew well what I meant. Urban population density in Sweden is not vastly different to that of Ireland ( 2,008 persons per km2 in Ireland 2016 [https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp2tc/cp2pdm/pd/#:~:text=Population%20density%20in%20Ireland&text=The%20average%20population%20density%20in,km2%20in%20rural%20areas.] vs 1,423 inhabitants per square kilometre in Sweden 2018 [https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subject-area/environment/land-use/localities-and-urban-areas/pong/statistical-news/localities-and-urban-areas-2018/#:~:text=The%20average%20population%20density%20in,34%20persons%20per%20square%20kilometre.]
Ok so you want to cherry pick. But even Denmark have only half Swedens population and have over 6k deaths.
Not doing a great job convincing me that sweden was the blood bath people predicted.
People said without lockdowns countries would have huge death rates. 6 figures were mentioned at times.
We're down to cherry picking to try prove that Sweden had some more deaths than others...
Sweden dif have more deaths than others.
We don't have to prove it. You've already stated that Sweden had more deaths than Ireland for example. No ones disputing it.
Cherry picking. From someone who had to be challenged to compare Sweden to its near neighbours? Pull the other one.
Sweden had 7.7% more deaths in 2020 than its average for the preceding four years... Sweden did much worse than its Nordic neighbours, with Denmark registering just 1.5% excess mortality and Finland 1.0%. Norway had no excess mortality at all in 2020.
And as I've said earlier, if you scale up the Swedish approach to mega cities or region wide, I don't think there's any grounds for thinking you would only have the 7.7% excess Sweden had.
One of the lowest excess deaths, but the other side of that coin that nobody likes to talk about was that nobody was allowed to 'live' (enjoy their life) during the lockdown(s) period.
Nobody you say...
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/six-out-of-10-adults-in-ireland-say-theyve-enjoyed-life-in-lockdown-40343884.html
We all understand that polls are fallible. Leading questions and so forth.
I have to say, I am not surprised at this, however I am appalled. Life under lockdown is not a human existence. Humans are not someone else's idea of a good society and we are not robots.
As we all should know, majority is not synonymous with correct.
On those stats people lived to enjoy life that in all probability without lockdown would not have.
Unless they voluntarily locked themselves down, of course.
Ironic since you've being arguing the opposite when it comes to protecting the vulnerable.
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