The beginning of the fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-beginning-of-the-fall-of-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-1.4871562
Its hard to believe the power they had over the state up to very recent years. NMH lands is still a debate, but I'm glad people can chose to follow religion (if they wish).
if you are fine with participation or exposure to religion being a choice then you have should not issue with its removal from schools. if people want to participate they have that choice.
I am fine with the removal of religion from schools. haha. That's why it's risky making others defend points that they didn't make themselves.
you are the one ignoring distinctions. criticism of the catholic church is not blanket criticism of it's members. there have been individual members criticised for their actions . that all seems appropriate to me and not at all irrational.
Did you even read the post I quoted and responded to? I seriously doubt it.
I read your post, thanks.
My post... so you didn't think the context in which I made that post was important? Or even the context of the overall paragraph was important, when you extracted one word and sought to argue against it?
It is the same bullshit any time the catholic church is criticised.
Are there two Klazes, or was this you?
See if you can work out the difference between parental permission to take part and parental permission to opt out.
WTF would someone need a letter from their mammy to avoid something that is at best irrelevant or at worst offensive to them? There should be no mass on school time. There should be no school mass. If people from school want a mass, let them organise it as a separate event. Schools should be inclusive. School events should include everyone.
Because until such a time as they’re old enough and bold enough to make decisions for themselves, their parents are responsible for their education, and to that end, that’s why schools would require parents consent for their children to be able to opt in, or to opt out, of a school activity.
There is school mass on school time in religious ethos schools. That’s entirely up to the school. If parents or guardians don’t want their children to attend school activities, they have the choice to let the school know that they are withdrawing their children from the activity. Otherwise, all children will be included in activities organised by the school, in accordance with the schools ethos.
That doesn’t make any sense. You’re aware that religion is the reason for the establishment of religious ethos schools, to provide education to the adherents of a particular religion or religious denomination. It’s a most curious extrapolation to claim that if someone says they are fine with participation or exposure to religion, that means they would have no issue with its removal from schools. The latter reasoning does not follow from the former statement.
What education do atheists get by attending a catholic mass?
That reminds me when someone emailed me a fax of a screengrab.
The same education as everyone else. The question wouldn’t be any different for any children of any religion or none, they would receive the same education as everyone else in an institution that is established for the purposes of providing that education in accordance with their religion, philosophy or world views.
Why eager to make excuses for a broken, totally outdated model of primary education which violates the human rights of pupils, parents and teachers every single day?
People who grew up in secular, pluralist European countries are right to be gobsmacked when they move here and realise our education system is stuck in the early 19th century.
Non-religious teachers are hiding or suppressing their beliefs over fears it could affect their employment or promotion prospects in schools with a religious ethos, according to research.
Only in Ireland can it be seen to be acceptable that a job paid for by taxes can be subjected to a religious test. Teachers are paid by the public purse but forced to indoctrinate kids into Christianity in 95% of primary schools.
I was explaining the reason for a letter. For someone who seems not to be aware of basic school operations.
Not making excuses for the entire education system and its evils over the last 200yrs which is somehow now my fault and my remit.
No I'm not advocating for hedge schools.
Yours? Yes, it is.
Because people are seeking to apply a black/white filter to the entire topic. The distinction between the Catholic religion as political entity, the catholic religion as a faith, and the distinction of those who follow the belief rather than the power structure, are all dismissed so that people can rant about the whole thing, collectively pushed together.
and nobody has done any of that. which is the usual bullshit spouted by people like you. you read some criticism of the catholic church and cry that its adherents are being attacked.
Are you even capable of sticking to a particular point, and not deviating by introducing new elements? cause that's what you've just done right there. Quoting my post in relation to something else, and then seeking to use it to justify a separate point entirely...
My stating that you have not proven that mass has no value is not the same as what you're attempting to claim. You made the claim, but want me to justify it for you.
It's ridiculous that you keep trying to push this.
How many times are you going to make this obvious point? It's your only response when people are asking about the continued inaction and resistance within the warped organisation when it comes to their human rights abuses and other failings. Change the record.
Even if that were true, then why are those people still in the catholic church? That is a decision they have made. They have looked at the abuse, the scandals, the coverups, the lack of openness, and said that despite all of that they feel comfortable being part of that organisation.
If one still considers themselves part of the catholic church, after all that has come to light, that it is entirely reasonable to ask of that person why they choose to remain part of the institution. There are plenty of other religions, plenty of other ways to have faith and a relationship with God.
But people remain. Priests continue to preach the church doctrine. That is a choice they have made.
Any other organisation having the seriousness, amount and coverup of their crimes would have been wound up years ago. Yet the catholic still continues to have a role in the state and access to power. They are given undue reverence and their views given far too much weight in discussions.
If one still considers themselves part of the catholic church, after all that has come to light, that it is entirely reasonable to ask of that person why they choose to remain part of the institution.
The question doesn’t even arise if your reasoning as to why people choose to associate with the Catholic Church wasn’t based upon guilt by association in the first place.
I have always wondered that too. I do think if Irish people did start to boycott Roman Catholic institutions, they would be forced to come clean on many unanswered questions and change the way they handle abusers. It never happened though.
Nobody? Come on, this whole thread is like that. Some subjects you can't discuss at all anymore on boards.
"people like you" - let the stoning commence.
13 pages of discussions says otherwise. as does a whole forum devoted to christianity.
Something id love to know is now that a large percentage of the Catholics in Republic of Ireland have a deep dislike of the Catholic Church will this lead to Unionists or Loyalists in Northern Ireland to become more open to the idea of being ruled by a Dublin Parliament who also have the Catholic Church beaten down? Surely the idea that Home Rule is Rome Rule is now dead if people in Southern Ireland delight in bashing the Catholic Church. The line in the "Wind that shakes the Barley " from the Protestant landlord of Ireland being ...."a priest infested backwater..." is surely gone now. Or, would the likes of the DUP who are evangelical Christians actually become defenders of Catholics because they are a shared Christian religion, would they become more of an alliance between Catholics and Protestants in the face of secular attacks. Could this ironically be the thing that actually unites Irish Catholics and Protestants and therefore makes the debate on Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland null and void? What would a Christian alliance look like in Ireland with Protestants and Catholics? Would DUP/FF/FG/Aontu be a good solid match on social issues?
This thread is a train wreck.
Looking at the rules of the charter they expressly cover the restriction on subjects " because these subjects tend to overrun and hijack other threads" they are also prefixing threads to counter the single subject spam.
It's not a trainwreck. You're upset that this sacred cow isn't being treated as such here.
I'm not sure thats a discussion about religion or a smoke screen and thus ultimately just about power.
And yet..
It would be less of a train wreak if you stopped with the histrionics.
Sorry I forgot I'm only allowed mention Catholic Church = bad in this thread. I'll try to do better.
The victimhood narrative is a very unpersuasive tactic.
where in the charter does it prohibit the discussion of the catholic church?
Communism?
Not sure I understand. If I find out the company I am working for is involved in the rape of children and its is a clear objective of that company to avoid fessing up, then I have a choice to make. Do I want to continue to work for them with that knowledge?
Of course in many cases, people cannot afford to make that choice, either through financial imperative or lack of alternatives. Neither of those exist in this case, certainly not anymore (not entirely sure they ever did, but will give the benefit to those in the past).
I am not saying people are guilty by association, I am saying that claiming they are guilt free is wrong. They cannot, and should not, be held accountable for the sins of others (a belief the catholic church would do well to take account of) but they certainly can he held to account for their continued support for such a criminal institution.
That, as I said, is entirely their choice. It does seem, that whenever this sort of discussion is brought up, that catholics are not fond of explaining their choice and instead claim that they are being unfairly associated with the church as a whole.
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w9.vanillicon.com/v2/9c6ef39403f5dc93bd4b9e77a11c1821.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://www.boards.ie/applications/dashboard/design/images/banned.png)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w1.vanillicon.com/v2/1751471ae521095b085946f3afd00e1d.svg)