The beginning of the fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-beginning-of-the-fall-of-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-1.4871562
Its hard to believe the power they had over the state up to very recent years. NMH lands is still a debate, but I'm glad people can chose to follow religion (if they wish).
How do you suggest the state does this.
Can you give an example of an incident in the secondary school closest to you of catholiscm being “shoved down the throat” of a pupil. Thanks.
Why is it hypocritical? There's stuff I find offensive, there's stuff I don't. Harmless terminologies is one I don't. There really are bigger issues out there.
How can Catholics avoid most of their own religion then? And no one else can?
School Mass for start or end of term, prayers at school registrations, Church approval of sex education curriculum, refusal to respect trans students - as still happens in Church schools and community schools in Ireland.
I've no idea what you're asking here. Why would a Catholic avoid their own religion?
In primary schools they absolutely have undue influence on things like sex education.... I would say, yep they're shoving a perspective down the throat of children and I would say a non LGBT friendly syllabus is very much so dangerous in formative years.
By insisting religion is taught as an extra-curricular activity conducted by priests, nuns, pastors, immams, rabbis or the relevant designated spiritual leader. Unless the school is private, in which case the school itself pays for the instruction.
People need a set of guidelines and leadership that transcends politics. The formation of morality? If it's not one thing, it's the other, if it's not fighting one thing, it's fighting the other. Purpose.
A moral vacuum will be filled rapidly. In a competition between the wildly aggressive and regressive religions outside Christianity versus "whatever you like", there'll be only one winner.
A few moments of greed followed by subjugation on the scale of things is the predictable outcome. Case in point, a Catholic owned/run school that's sold off and turned into a luxury hotel. I'm aware of two instances of this specifically, and it really frames the entire question of value personally. Was that a win for society? No. Is a haphazard bunch of cretinous ideas sprouted from the likes of Twitter maniacs going to fill moral leadership? No.
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, so be careful what you wish for and how it is being manipulated.
In what way are women in the Catholic Church today “second class citizens”? To help you, here is a definition of “second class citizen” from Wikipedia. As the church isn’t a state or a political jursdiction it’s hard to see where you’re going with this but, anyway:
A second-class citizen is a person who is systematically and actively discriminated against within a state or other political jurisdiction, despite their nominal status as a citizen or a legal resident there.
Ill also take this opportunity to correct you, once again, on your allegation that the RCC says that that gay people are disordered.
It doesn’t say that.
It says that gay sex is disordered. That’s quite a difference. The RCC doesn’t recognise any kind of sex outside of heterosexual marriage though so I don’t don’t know why gay people find it so particularly offensive. There are lots of people not in the gay community who cannot be received into the sacrament of matrimony either. It’s not as if gay people are particularly discriminated against in that manner.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, a text which contains dogmas and teachings of the Church, names “homosexual acts” as “intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law,”
The claim was "they're trying to force it down other people's throats."
There is a difference between having the schools administered by the Church, and forcing it down peoples throats. How many of these schools continue to have mandatory prayers during classes? Mandatory confessions? etc.
Which is not what I responded to. You're making an entirely different point.
But in relation to what you said, as long as there are religious icons, and the teachings of religion in mainstream classes (not an elective extra class) then the system is not secular. However, if those icons and religious teachings are removed, but just administered by the religious orders, without that religion being expressed in mainstream classes... then I would say they are upholding a secular system.
An organization with views such as that should have absolutely no influence upon sex education in schools but they do...
I'm not religious and I'm perfectly capable of morality without it. Also the church was perfectly capable of engaging in endless immoral acts over the years so they're not the best as moral arbiters go.
Why won't they do that....
Someone argued the chruch was forcing religion down people's troaths. While not "forceing down the troat" this is an example of exerting unrequested influence.
Beyond that, I agree - if you spent a few days in the school, you should not be able to tell whether the administration was the chruch or not.
What's not something I can speculate. I was only answering the question.
But there has to be a policy on sex education in the school. Who decided that a pro LGBTQ program was better for kids then a pro traditional family values program?
The claim was Catholic avoid most aspects of their religion. I said who cares.
I don't see how they can do it and no one else can.
Predictably we're back to schools again where Catholics are only turning up to the hotel and not the ceremony. But everyone else is getting force fed religion.
All the hyperbole aside. People can't be both brainwashed and ignoring religion at the same time.
It's a waste of school time certainly. But the school boards seem to have undue religious influence.
Primary school down the road here has plenty of non Christian, never mind non Catholic pupils. Not one single child is obliged to go to the mass say the prayers or anything else for that manner. So there’s no shoving any of these things down anyones throat.
I think you probably need to bring yourself up to date with modern school life.
Did you think you still had to be baptised to be enrolled??
Can you give me an example of a trans student being either refused or expelled here in Ireland??
Unrequested influence? You have got to be joking. Teachers bring their own biases into the classroom all the time. This thread has been throwing out biases about Trans issues (in spite of how little we know about its long-term impact over children's/teens development)... but simple exposure to a religion, without it being actively encouraged or forced, is unreasonable?
I agree that religious education should be a separate class, which parents/students choose for themselves.
Why is that important? After all, most religious orders have a uniform, or religious attire... so it's unlikely to escape anyone's notice if the administration of the school is religious. Would you expect a Muslim female teacher to dress the same as other non-religious people to avoid the impression that she might be promoting her religion?
Nothing is perfect. Whether it pretends to be or not.
As for your ability to be moral without religion, very interesting.
So, would you have the morality to force women to cover their faces? Public stonings? Female genital mutilation? Male genital mutilation?
Because that would be considered a common morality amongst a great many people, religious or not. Your a-religious morality is immoral to some other a-religious fella from elsewhere.
My point is this, your morality is more than likely 99% overlap with Christianity because of your upbringing. You don't develop some universal morality out of thin air. You have the beliefs you do because of religion, with a couple tweaks and bells added on to make it feel new. Try your morality in some other place and you will be surprised at how wrong and unacceptable you suddenly are.
People need religion, whether it is called a religion or not.
Are teachers supposed to bring their own biases into the classroom? Are they doing it consciously and deliberately?
Thread was about the Catholic church and splintered off into trans, so not sure where you/re going with this.
Expsoure to religion is NOT the same as being educated into one.
I've no problem with how teachers dress, but if a Muslim woman was teaching in a school that was administered by the RCC how would I deduce that from what one teacher wears?
For me, the RCC is a business. It does not like competition, it's sole purpose for existence is to perpetuate it's own survival. I'll never forget reading in church as a child (12ish) the bit at the back of the pamphlet handed out to everyone, it read something along the lines, 'copyright roman catholic church Ltd.' I presume there is still a similar statement on church documents handed out in church.
To be fair, most western morality is not exclusively tied to religion. Oh, it had it's roots there, but western culture has evolved too much to assume that people could not gain their own sense of morality (that is acceptable to mainstream society) without a religion.
I'm agnostic. I have zero time for religion in my life, but my sense of morality is built up through experience. Some of it is comparable to Christian teachings, but a lot is unrelated.
Religion is not the centrepiece it once was. The influence and effect of it in history has established itself in western culture, but western culture is not dependent on it, nor are common western values regarding morality.
Exemples I’ve experienced:
and before the “down the country” brigade jump in. That was in suburban South County Dublin in the very late 1990s.
It's probably the name of the company who printed it.
You're not sure where I'm going with this, when you're the one introducing ideas like unrequested influence? Come on. You've led the discussion...
I completely agree.
A school being religious should not matter as long as religious education is not part of the mainstream curriculum (except as an elective or separate choice for those of that religion), and all students are easily able to avoid practicing any religious observances.
I've no problem with how teachers dress,
It doesn't matter. We're on the same page. I was just clearing up a question in my head about your earlier logic.
It was a declaration that the contents were copyrighted like any other protected material, owned by a company and this company happened to have a title along the lines of roman catholic church Ltd.
I completely disagree, Western culture is largely formed through Christianity.
You can see the same effects in other large regions of the world.
Universalistic morality is a complete impossibility without a lens. You can't condemn executions in China unless you have a starting point; in this case, the morality you absorbed from your surroundings. (USA is an outlier in this instance, to be fair). It's only wrong to you because you think differently, and you think differently because of where you grew up, and where you grew up is shaped by its own religion.
The very reason you are "allowed" to have little time attached to it is itself a result of Christianity. You wouldn't get near the same leeway elsewhere.
We are what we are because of Christianity, and everything revolves around that fact, whether you hate it, love it, aren't bothered and so on. The centrepiece is Christianity. Or, as seems to be a popular statement these days, "tell me you aren't a product of Christianity without mentioning Christianity."
It's one or the other in terms of moral leadership, and there's a lot to be argued in favour of a leadership that allows you to argue in the first place. Better the devil you know ;)
TBH, I fail to see the problem. Virtually, all publications have copyright or legal information on them to protect the organisation. Of course, they're going to protect what's related to their faith. I'm sure you find something similar on information/promotional pages for the young scientist competition.
Problem? Go back far enough in time and the church would kill you for translating it's texts into english, or any other language for that matter. The point I'm making is that in essence it's a business, like any other. The difference being that it seeks to influence govt. policy and manipulate society in a manner that benefits itself.
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