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Where do Irish professional rugby players come from?

[Deleted User]

Did some analysis of the 227 players currently on the four Irish provincial squads, plus the full academies, looking at where the players were produced.

The four squads are roughly equal in size, Leinster are the largest at 61, then Munster at 58, Ulster at 56 followed by Connacht at only 52.

School Location

101 players total (44%) are produced by schools within the Leinster system, 43 players (19%) within the Munster system, 32 players (14%) in the Ulster system, and just 13 players (6%) from a school in the Connacht system. 38 players (17%) were educated overseas.

School Classification

52% of all players (117 players) are produced from a private secondary school in Ireland, 72 (32%) from a public school, and the residual 38 (17%) from a foreign school. I haven't broken down the foreign schools by public v private.

Largest Producer

The most telling stat from the analysis is the following: 20% of all Irish players (44 players) come from two schools, Blackrock College & St Michael's College. Blackrock account for 24 players and Michael's 20. Next largest school seems to be Pres in Cork, with 12 players (5%).

Squad by Squad Analysis

The Leinster squad has the most indigenously produced players (54 players - 88%), and the highest percentage of privately educated players (44 players - 72%).

Munster most heavily rely on their own schools (41 players - 71%) and have the second highest percentage of privately educated players (34 players - 59%).

Ulster produce 54% of their own players (30 players), but the remaining quotient of Ulster players are produced evenly from foreign schools and Leinster schools, both 13 players (23%).

Connacht have a reliance on the Leinster school system, which accounts for 48% of their squad (25 players), with the next highest percentage coming from abroad (27%),

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errlloyd

As a good indication of this. In the early 2000s Tony Ward was a teacher and head coach in St Andrews - but apparently, he wanted to move to coaching only and St Andrews wouldn't at the time. So he moved to Gerards in a purely coaching role AFAIK.

About 5 years later St Andrews did change their policy and hired a dedicated coach - but they almost always had some non teaching in school role. Hallway monitoring etc. But a significant amount of the coaching work was still done by teachers.

FrannoFan

Vanstone in blackrock is a teacher.

Greg McWilliams, kelvin leahy and Emmet McMahon where all teachers when coaching Michaels SCT to cup wins

Staunton in castleknock is a teacher.

There are externals hired in but you'll find teachers still involved with SCT squads. Also plenty of other coaching goes on outside of cup sides in first/second year etc and this idea schools have stacks of externals being paid to come in for every level just isn't accurate

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000540#Comment_119000540

The era of teachers being the main coaches is long gone. Mind you even when I was playing schools 40 years ago, the senior and junior team were coached by non teachers. That wasn’t a fee paying school either.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000480#Comment_119000480

Not even just top schools.

I know some pretty mid level schools who have hired qualified coaching from first year onwards. Most of the time the arrangement is multi faceted with the same coaches doing roles for many teams

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000360#Comment_119000360

Coaching in schools is carried out by teachers. They are trained in education. It is their full time profession.

Ehm that’s not the case with the top schools at all.

FrannoFan

One thing lost in this whole school v club thing (not discounting the finance, tradition etc etc) is who is Carrying out the coaching.

Coaching in schools is carried out by teachers. They are trained in education. It is their full time profession. It's very transferable skills. Imparting knowledge and skills in the classroom to imparting knowledge and skills on the field. The coaching carried out at club will mostly be involved parents who maybe turn out to be good at it or maybe not. No doubting effort or time spent but doing a Leinster coaching course for a weekend isn't going to give the same skills as a full time teacher.

The Leinster development officers are going to provide good standard of coaching for those who make regional sides but it's like trying to learn an extra subject outside of school with a grind compared to a student doing it in school. So just like a student some will still excel (and plenty of examples and increasing number. Frawley, conor O'Brien, osbourne etc) but it's unlikely to overtake the school number.

ersatz

Refusing to acknowledge competition between schools and clubs for good underage players is putting your head in the sand. Rugby needs to plan for its own future but taking the existing order as a natural state of affairs is naive. Schools have the upper hand when it comes to prestige, legacy, resources, recruitment and access to the professional pipeline. The Senior Cup is televised ffs, no one knows the name of the equivalent club competition except rugby anoraks but ppl who couldn’t distinguish between a ruck and a maul have heard of the senior cup.

you could look at it another way entirely which is that there are 100 units of rugby resources for underage players in the game in Ireland and 70 units goes to 15 schools while 30 go to 200 clubs ( literally pulling those numbers out of my ar*e). If I’m the rugby god interested in having another country who might win a World Cup I’m firing my rugby resource unit distribution manager and her whole team.

Dubinusa

You'd have to wonder what the % of lads that drop out of rugby and go on to other sports! It's strange that the clubs are like junior partners? The % of lads playing rugby in Connacht is probably pretty low. Most would be swinging a hurl or playing G.A.A.

sydthebeat

On absolutely everything above

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984030#Comment_118984030

It shouldnt be a cut off but for all too many it is. Because of systems in place.... Like if we were starting from scratch the current system would never be in place. I think we are seeing more of a view from provincial coaches that we need regional squads etc beyond 16/17. we really fail at 20s in all provinces bar Leinster. Munster used to have thriving 20s competitions for clubs outside the top few clubs but now unless you can field in a league with Con, Garryowen etc then you have little opportunity for regular competitive rugby which is absolutely f''''g ridiculous. Connacht have occasional 20s blitz days for the few clubs that want to play 20s but dont/cant/wont commit to playing division 2/3 of the Leinster JP Fanagan league

We do need to see more clubs fielding under 23 style teams in adult competitions like a few clubs in Leinster do

Schools players who play schools cup (and some SCT2) but beyond that when you are talking about rest theyre not. we need more integration of clubs and schools players throughout a players teenage years with some limitations be it the type of competition theyre allowed play etc but i think the very best clubs teams who by and large will have by under 16 and 18 have interpro players, regional players and also have many also training and playing in their school can more than compete against many schools players.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984158#Comment_118984158

But as you well know syd. rightly or wrongly(totally wrongly IMO...) the vast majority of schools games especially beyond the SCT/JCT and the odd game at other levels in schools there is no team sheets/no official referee and everything else....

This shouldnt be allowed happen but all too often does.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984767#Comment_118984767

Very fringe players can play with their club if they want to. In some cases schools make cases to stop them all depends on what level in school theyre at and numbers etc. its about player safety, stopping clubs just picking loads of schools players to play club competitions.

Schools players in theory should be getting more than enough rugby in the school season that they dont need too many more with a club. Like a schools cup player in a league school in Leinster will play 5 group games in league, up to 3 knockout games, a few friendlies prior to christmas and then will have christmas/new years friendlies and then they have vinnie murray or straight to the cup itself and possibly a plate run in either vinnie murray or cup if knocked out in first round.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992940#Comment_118992940

and again, that brings into the definition of meaningful games.

Playing competitive Leinster Club league versus JCT seconds / thirds / TYs in friendlies etc is not at all comparable.

errlloyd

For me, the bit we are all missing here is how telling the Blackrock / Michaels stat is. 44 pro players coming from those two schools makes it statistically likely that we are turning average Athletes into elite rugby players. There is no reason why exceptional athletes (bar *very few* scholarships) should concentrate in those schools - particularly for St Michaels which in the lifetime of the current graduating class was not considered to have a particular rugby pedigree and therefore has no selection bias of incoming students. So we must conclude a reasonable portion of the pros they produce are pretty average athletes who are very well trained.

Irish Rugby should be striving to turn exceptional athletes into elite rugby players. At the moment we are favouring nuture over nature - but really we want both exceptional natural talent, exceptionally well nurtured. The base of the pyramid needs to be wider and the learnings we get from whatever it is they do in those rugby player factories need to be applied broadly.

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984158#Comment_118984158

A player may be in a panel and not starting SCT but it doesn't mean they aren't playing matches for seconds etc.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984333#Comment_118984333

That's ridiculous. We'd lose so many and probably are. G.A.A and football have several times the players. What do rugby accomplish be this? There's some serious athletes playing G.A.A. if a schools player can't play for his club, he's probably going to play something else.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983401#Comment_118983401

You underestimate the power that the schools lobby has within the branches.

Lot of vested interests at play, nothing will change that will ever upset the schools apple cart.

The stupid thing about this rule is some fringe player at a school can't go play rugby for his club, but he can go play GAA or soccer or whatever else he wants.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984030#Comment_118984030

Regarding playing schools players vs club players from my experience schools players are far more advanced physically and tactically compared to average club players (who typically play multiple sports) so I don't advocate them being in competition.

no one is advocating for schools teams to play against club teams here. Im not sure why you think this?

The issue some clubs have is that schools players are panelled, and not allowed to play clubs, even though they get very little game time as part of that panel. No one has an issue with small number of panelled players being kept for schools competition. With sportslomo etc, it is now very very easy to keep account of a players on field minutes. this just needs to be religiously enforced and updated.

shaungil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980189#Comment_118980189

Lost Ormond points out system exists to feed into U18 inter-provincials but how a kid plays aged 17 should this be a cut off?

In conjuncction with this I'd keep squads at regional level through to u18/19 (same age as schools players? )giving them the support and keep rolling club players in and out as needed. I read somewhere about Arsenal doing trials on developmental age so kids played against kids in the same physical maturity. This approach might identify players. Also picking out late joiners to the game from less traditional areas. I understand money talks and this all costs money but in a physical game the early developers are definitely getting the advantage of more training earlier. But to my original point it works for Leinster so why would they change it?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983401#Comment_118983401

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057924299/school-paneling-of-under-age-club-players

its not only the schools though, the provincial branches are involved as they administer the schools competitions.

interesting article below

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/liam-toland-young-players-need-more-meaningful-rugby-1.3229618

pickarooney

Why should schools be allowed dictate anything about what kids do outside of school?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981868#Comment_118981868

kids that are panelled to school teams and end up playing little to no rugby in their teens are lost to rugby forever when they leave school. This severely hinders clubs who lose a significant portion of youth age grade players to schools.

it would be a much better situation if players were allowed play with their clubs once they dont play a certain quota of JCT or SCT games, similar to how seniors versus seconds work for seconds cup and league etc.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981789#Comment_118981789

Again you’re completely missing the point. The schools strangle the clubs. Meaning that the clubs don’t field teams. So therefore there is no platform to develop players outside the school system. So unless you’re in a school, you are very unlikely to develop. Especially in Dublin.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981838#Comment_118981838

I think it's debatable that it is more desirable in the scenario you've described. While the common perception is that it's better to play rugby than sit on the bench, I think there is a lot more empirical evidence to suggest that same player would develop more if he's on the fringe of the Blackrock SCT due to the coaching, conditioning, exposure to other top class players etc than he would playing week in week out for Tullamore (these are just spurious examples I'm using here).

The proof is in the fact that 20% of current Irish professional rugby players were produced by Blackrock & Michaels, and there have been examples of guys making it who didn't start for the Blackrock SCT.

This is back to my main point; it's not just about getting more kids playing rugby, it's about elevating the quality of the coaching the players are getting across the board.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981789#Comment_118981789

I think @stephen_n is saying there are players on the periphery of schools teams who don't get as much game time, who would get an awful lot more game time for a club side if they were allowed to play for one.

It would surely be more desirable for a guy to play a lot for Tullamore than very little for Blackrock, no?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981746#Comment_118981746

You're missing the wood from the trees.

It's not about clubs v schools, it's about more good players v less.

If we've a good player coming through, it doesn't matter where he comes from, just that he be developed to the best of his potential and ability, and hopefully become a productive player for the national side.

You seem to think it would be more desirable if a guy plays for Tullamore instead of Blackrock College, when the situation I'm trying to describe is that it would obviously be more desirable if both Tullamore and Blackrock could both be producing top class players.

also; fwiw, the players are free to play wherever they choose. It's always great to see the good old internet trope of accusing me of having no idea where age grade players come from, when you're the one here who thinks the issue is that clubs can't field teams. 🙄

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981529#Comment_118981529

The best players are not allowed play for the clubs. The schools get to register their squads and those players are not allowed play for the clubs. In some schools that’s up to 30 players. Which means there aren’t enough players left in the clubs to field teams. So your point is completely spurious. It isn’t about coaching or bringing the clubs up to the levels of the schools. If they are wholesale denied access to their players. Clearly you don’t have much understanding of age grade rugby.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118979811#Comment_118979811

From my experience of the game reffing, coaching, etc Leinster do a lot more than pay lip service to clubs. They have to pick players at the age they do otherwise its too late. The development process starts with the development groups at under 15s before the Shane Horgan Cup at Under 16s which is a principal guide to the selection of the Leinster Youths squad for the season after at under 18s. They have Under 17 and 18s development squads as well for regions to keep an eye on others. Now id like if they had under 20 squads to assess others

the very top club players between their local school and their club can get lot more than 2-3 hours a week between gym and pitch work.

From reffing and coaching i dont think at all the club system will more often than not pick size over skill.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981246#Comment_118981246

This is a nonsensical red herring you've mentioned twice now - the issue isn't with the schools. You don't improve the overall situation by bringing down the part that is already working well, you look at what sort of in built structural advantages they have and you see if it's feasible and economical to replicate that.

In this case; it's about trying to match the quality and frequency of coaching that the schools have in the clubs.

That likely isn't feasible, but you have to see where you can make improvements.

If you look at the the Irish XV that started against the All Blacks last November, 9 of the 15 grew up or were educated within a 10-15 min drive of Lansdowne Road (Keenan, Conway, Ringrose, Sexton, Porter, Kelleher, Ryan, Doris, VDF).

There is nothing in the water in that tiny pocket of South Dublin that produces better rugby players than Carrick On Shannon, Clifden, Cahir, Carrickfergus or Carlow.

If we could even scratch the surface of producing players from other parts of the country with even a fraction of the same frequency we produce them in South Dublin, then Ireland could legitimately be in with a shout of contending for a World Cup.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980189#Comment_118980189

Stop the schools blocking access to the clubs for players. Most clubs don’t bother fielding after u-15 in Dublin.

Move the clubs season so it doesn’t clash with schools cup.

Zeugnis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118979811#Comment_118979811

Interesting. How would you change the current approach?

shaungil

Coming from a background in coaching youths I think the Leinster system just pay lip service to the clubs. Highlight the Ciaran Frawleys Furlongs etc but really the system is working for them so why would they change it? Undoubtedly players with potential are falling through the gaps because the club system via regions are selecting players so young and filtering them down to Leinster youths etc late developers are being missed and when the club players (2-3 hrs coaching a week) are pitted against the schools players (10 hrs a week) the schools guys are bound to be miles ahead albeit with maybe a potential lower ceiling.

Also the schools players that develop later will still be in the schools system so can be picked up ala Brian O'Driscoll who was a sub in JCT team or something.

My own experince is that in the club system in a choice between size and skill, size is chsen more often than not and someone said to me you can't coach size.

Will Leinster choose to put more time and hence money into screening and coaching more club players. I can't see it happening when they can just rely on the schools to churn them out year after year. I'd wager anyone employed by IRFU that has aspirations for their child to play pro rugby is sending them to a private rugby school.