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is entering dairying still an option

weatherbyfoxer

been doin lots of thinking here on the future of my farming enterprise,.currently running a dairy calf to beef and mid season lambing sheep flock on 33 ha of owned land stocked a 165kg N per Ha..so im at my limit as far as im concerned,..with current imput costs my enterprise isn't sustainable even if fertiliser drops for example 200 per ton and meal 50 per ton it is still a dead duck...so im starting to look at the possibility of going milking...heres the current setup

20 hectares accessible to yard without crossing any roads which had 600m or farm road way half way through it.12 hectares of grass across the road suitable for silage ground also all ground would be dry suitable for early turn out.The yard had a 2 span slatted shed with a 2 span straw lay back and another 3 bay slatted sheds with a 5 span straw lay back..also have another 4 span straw shed adjacent to these..if my calculations are correct i have 370 m3 of slurry storage

so this has me thinking maybe a 60 cow dairy herd is an option,.buy a secondhand parlour and convert a few of the sheds for cubicles...anyone any advice or thoughts?

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Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862491#Comment_118862491

I'd be very slow to go with fixed price. I think we have only seen the start of price inflation and and any Agriculture prices are only doing catch up at the moment.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861012#Comment_118861012

OP, I'm someone who decided to go back into milk at 40, second year in the parlour now and love it. We had a dairy herd up until 2005 so I knew what was involved

Were you still set up for dairying?

There is a huge difference between someone like yourself, who was born and bred dairying and milked cows until you were 25, and someone who never put a set of clusters on.

I think there is a huge difference between someone who stopped for a few years and went back dairying and someone who never did it previously.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862491#Comment_118862491

Banks have a lot to answer for

Green&Red

Needed to buy a new parlour, build a dairy. Had the cubicle sheds with a few alterations to do.

Maybe the learning curve is steep for milking, I suppose it depends on the lad learning it. My wife never set foot on a farm before we met, she can milk now, is great looking after the calves.

The basics are manageable

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862948#Comment_118862948

Most stick skills are transferrable. It's similar to any trade or skill. Yes the adaptability if the person counts. I be as much afraid of the business skills as the stockman skills.

To build up calving skills use easy calving bulls if you have not calved cows before.. A two day old calf is a lot easier to adapt to a new feeding system than a three week old calf.

Milking is a repetitive process. Of you have a relief milker how long to train him in. After that hygiene goes a long way and knowledge about mastitis is a learning curve.

It's the business skill of handling a larger cash flow that could be as big a catch. A lad milking 60 cows this year could be turning over 150k here on a similar drystock farm maybe half that.

But costs are higher and you have to realise you have to spend but also have to manage costs if you want to maximise return

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118863375#Comment_118863375

I be as much afraid of the business skills as the stockman skills.

Exactly. The animal husbandry isn't the biggest challenge.

Personally, I would consider successful dairy men as incredibly capable businessmen. They have the ability to manage cashflow efficiently when the overheads are far greater than other farming enterprises.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861735#Comment_118861735

Hard one to put a figure on, going off 2020 accounts their was a 150 cows milked, with 60 acres of ground leased for 2 cuts of silage and 22 acres of maize contract grown, all in all this equates to circa 250 tons of imported dm of feed which with circa 1.8 ton of meal going into the cows here, would feed 75 cows a full tmr diet, so you can work it back that 75 cows is what I can carry here plus replacement heifers.

Total cost of imported feed was 60k, total milk sales from these 75 extra cows was 600,000 litres @ 34 cent was 204000 euro less 60k imported silage/maize and another 35k for meal, these ladies left a gross margin of 110k and then you take of your day to day running costs etc, and principal plus intrest payments of circa 20k yearly for infrastructure to facilitate these extra cows, net profit before depreciation/capital allowances extra was circa 750 euro a cow in 2020, if I was milking just the 75 I'd say around the same to be honest, but obviously my workload would be halved

Theirs no fortune been made here to be honest, but what has been achieved is a fairly well set up dairy unit, and alot of land reclaimed and drained that was growing the best of rushes

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866143#Comment_118866143

Fair play for sharing all that detail.

750 a cow is good. I’d nearly consider going in to milking but I don’t fancy calving down 75 cows, the early starts, the initial investment and I have a handy number of job so part time farm suits me.

Id say if I lost the job I’d go milking 50 and keep the calves to beef that aren’t replacements.

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866143#Comment_118866143

Different operation here on equivalent numbers but only a little better in the bottom line.we have radically different figures in some categories but it nearly works out the same profit afterwards.

FintanMcluskey

Net profit €750 a cow.

Are the top suckler men getting near that?

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866222#Comment_118866222

Where are you getting 750€/cow from ?

add in jays deprication (not a cash cost to the system, only used for tax purposes) at 51k he made 634/cow

Siamsa Sessions

Hi OP,

Coming to this late so apologies if it's been mentioned already, but I'd suggest you try to step thru what might be a typical day as a dairy farmer (yes, yes, yes, I know there's no such thing as a typical day!). It might help make the work, the figures, the cows, the parlour, etc. more real.

What time will you put the cows in in the morning? How long will it take to milk them? What time will you get back to your house? Then what? Fertiliser? Fencing? Figuring out why SCC is a little high? Picking out bulls for breeding? Grass walk? Checking calves/heifers? Shifting the fence and setting up this evening's paddock?

Cows back in the parlour at what time? What time will you finish for the day?

I spent about 12 months doing homework on converting but decided against it last year. I didn't have enough ground to go at it full-time and would have had to stay working part-time off-farm. With a young family, I decided there wasn't enough hours in the day to try balance it all.

To try and help others, I put the various questions/issues I asked myself into a website: https://sites.google.com/view/dairyconversion/home

Feel free to send me a DM if you wish. I'm happy to talk at any stage.

And just to confuse things, I'm thinking about converting in 2024 when land my family has leased out reverts to me. I'll have 85-ish acres then and plan to milk no more than 60-70 cows. I'll probably try to set 15-ish acres of spring barley as well. The farm is all in one block but the furtherest away fields are approx. 800m from the parlour location.

I'll be 48 at that stage.

Siamsa Sessions

I haven't looked at the dairy conversion website in a while, but going thru it myself again now, I'd suggest you start with the Lifestyle page: https://sites.google.com/view/dairyconversion/lifestyle

kevthegaff

Vet fees are high Jay, alot of vacinations? Fert is low enough

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867518#Comment_118867518

Sorry, this like junior cert business all over again.

634 a cow isn’t bad though.

If you could hire some innocent cratur to milk them at reasonable rate ud be laughing

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867609#Comment_118867609

The pneumonia and lepto vaccines is the cheapest money you will spend.

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867921#Comment_118867921

id be quite the opposite system to jay but paying for every acre we’re farming between rent and mortgage, running a grass based spring calving system

our figure was 120€ /cow more and total milk sales weren’t as high

this is not a dig jay, you’re very clued in but I think you should reevaluate your production model/system

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867991#Comment_118867991

Their is circa 40k of once off building costs, in 2020 accounts that skews it, along with a disastrous batch of fleck cross heifers that calved down that year out of 20 only 6 made it to end of 1st lactation, their was a 20k loss their alone with lost milk sales…..

Circa 600k been invested here the past 10 years, cow numbers increased from 40-200 this year and debt levels of less then 1000 euro a cow, on a wet farm here, what other system would you suggest I go for when a 150 day fully housed winter is the bare minimum I get away with

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867937#Comment_118867937

Don't use either of them. Just salmonella and rotavirus

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867609#Comment_118867609

Rota/salmonella/lepto and bvd was been done, had a crypto issue in 2019 aswell so parafour was been used also that year at 15 euro a calf

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118868281#Comment_118868281

I guess it depends on what works for you. Always have trouble with pneumonia here

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867991#Comment_118867991

Are you saying he is going for too many cows?

einn32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867921#Comment_118867921

They used call us slaves on farm I worked on in Ireland!

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118868967#Comment_118868967

To be honest there is honour in a decent days work that doesn’t show up in a bank account.

Based on the figures above, I am earning way more than a person milking way over 100 cows in my day job. The funny thing about is that I enjoy working with the cattle more than the day job even if there is way less out of it as you don’t have to bullshit cattle and you can’t play Larry goodman

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118868161#Comment_118868161

But we’re talking about 2020 to compare like with like jay, my cow numbers have gone up too

You’re going to have some form of building costs every year if you want to keep infrastructure in good repair /to a high standard

weve a fair chunk spent here, money spent every year in the yard and land

ill have have to add in the building costs to mine and see what it looks like

you still had the factory money from the heifers despite no milk sales off them? Not a total loss

despite it all jay, I follow grass based, mainly teagasc template - you’re fairly consistent in your criticism of that system but fact is it works

I’m as well off as you with less milk sales and a lot less bought in feed and a lot simpler system,

all I’m saying is 190k out the gate to buy in feed is a serious amount of money for in my opinion feck all gain at the end of the day, you mightn’t want to hear it but less cows, less milk, less meal would be more profitable for you

K.G.

To be fair to Jay I think he is doing what suits his circumstances best.the central message here is there isn't as much money in milking as alot of people think even lads that are milking. That was even the underlying message from greenfield s and other research farms when you looked at it.i have serious worries about taking on any level of borrowing s to establish a dairy farm,different for an established one but once borrowing s go over 1000 to 1500 cow you are at nothing.one thing to note in jays figure was no labour but maybe its hiding in another category

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118869070#Comment_118869070

What's your stocking rate on milking platform for this year, 4/ha our past that out of curiosity and on the every acre we farm is paid for bit, what % of loanvland repayments/rental payments would your sfp cover on this metric, between sfp going to the ole chap and the profits he makes from a business he stared up a few years ago using this money, theirs another 50k been generated net profit but obviously that's not in my wheelhouse the cow side of the business is standalone but their is more then one way to skin a cat

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118869095#Comment_118869095

I would agree that there is not much money out of milking. First both Jay and GTM are both still paying for expansion stage. I somehow think both will continue to expand if they can. Jay is buying in a lot of feed and GTM as leased or purchased land. When either are finished expand they will generate substantial cash reserves with a company structure.

In OP's case he is not looking at substantial borrowings. In essence he is looking at making a fairly decent living not generating wealth as Nay and GTM are

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118868978#Comment_118868978

As a PAYE worker it very hard to generate wealth. A single person earning 80k/ year will have 1006 in disposable income and pay nearly 28k in deductions. When you earn above 50-60k in any private company you earn it.

Most people earning that sort of cash will have hidden costs such as travel and clothes expenses. Youngest lad is working in a bank he forked out 300 euro for a suit and shirt last week.

Most people in decent jobs will have 10 hour days minimum. Maybe 100/ week in work expenses ( diesel, car expenses, clothes food etc). On food in most higher paid jobs you will end up eating it 1-2 times a week.

At the small medium sized farm scale the amount of personal expenses people can write off can be the equivalent to 100/ week and often double or treble it. That is a 200 euro plus gap compared to a PAYE workers. IMO being self employed is worth 10 k minimum in real income terms.

The amazing thing is a lot to lads do not notice it

straight

There is no right or wrong system, just like there is no right or wrong cow. You just choose whatever system suits you best. Personally, I wouldn't have a jersey or FRX inside the gate but that doesn't mean they're not right for someone else.

My main concern is for the lads that get into dairying for the money and all the lies spouted by media and vested interests.

Milk cows if you like the lifestyle and don't do it to get rich.

Accounts don't always show the full picture especially during expansion or development. One also has to consider the value of the stock, machinery, etc. In the event of I'll health or unforeseen circumstances they could be liquidated easy enough.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118869435#Comment_118869435

Replying to the second part re PAYE worker.

100% agree - huge hidden costs associated for professionals in just attending work and a 10 hour day/50 hour week is far from uncommon. And often a hell of a lot of pressure in a lot of them jobs.