Following on from
this thread
Please remain civil or posting privileges will be removed
I am interested in the politics of it not the event per se. Didn't really bother me one way or another if it happened.
Just think it is interesting that Coveney couldn't get it over the line and what that means for one of the governing parties. If you want to avoid that and talk about the event, knock yourself out.
Minister has opinion, brings proposal to government, government considers proposal, government decides to go or not to go with proposal.
Happens every week. It is called government. If you are not bothered about the issue, why are you posting about a normal process?
If you are only interested in personalities rather than political issues, should you consider following Dancing With the Stars or Celebrity Big Brother instead?
It means nothing. But I doubt you care about that.
As everyone has pointed out this would have been an excellent event for Ireland, you made the mistake of gloating that it wasn't been held.
No idea why someone would want to try slagging off a TD for doing their job and trying to make Ireland a better place, especially for the people of Cork which this would of been a huge positive for them.
Seriously, do you think people are that naïve? Of course there was political gameplaying here.
Your attempts to turn off the spotlight are bizarre.
If you are not aware Coveney is is a TD for Cork. it's for the people in his area. He wouldn't be doing his basic job if he wasn't bringing options like this to the Dail
Anyway looks like a usual rabbit hole.
It's a pity for Cork but all of Ireland we can't get this event, hopefully in the future
It's ok, no need to try and handwave the political import here. We know you will try to deflect from it like others. It will not change anything in the real world. This is damaging for Coveney's postion in the party no matter how you spin it.
According to you everything is damaging once it involves the government. Deflect from what? you saying something is bad for the government 🤣 I think boards would crash if you actual posted something was good for the government. Broken record
The numbers were there and are there for Sinn Fein. If they could put themselves together with the Greens, Labour, SDs and PBP, then they would have persuaded enough independents.
One last try to knock this on the head...
Here's the Dail numbers immediately after the last election
SF + GP + Lab + SDs + PBP + Others = 68
So to reach a bare majority this 'United Left Alliance' needs 12 of the Independents, for a workable one at least 15 or 16 of them
Here's a list of those independents (apologies for the format)
Cathal Berry]Kildare SouthSeán CanneyGalway EastMichael CollinsCork South-WestCatherine ConnollyGalway WestMichael FitzmauriceRoscommon–GalwayPeter FitzpatrickLouthNoel GrealishGalway WestMarian HarkinSligo–LeitrimDanny Healy-RaeKerryMichael Healy-RaeKerryMichael LowryTipperaryMattie McGrathTipperaryMichael McNamaraClareVerona MurphyWexfordDenis NaughtenRoscommon–GalwayCarol NolanLaois–OffalyRichard O'DonoghueLimerick CountyThomas PringleDonegalMatt Shanahan
How many of those would be remotely likely to support an SF-led coalition? Isn't it infinitely more likely that if FF and FG were trying to put together a government without the support of the Greens, the likes of Lowry, Grealish, Fitzpatrick etc. would have rowed in behind that rather than SF's project?
SF had first conversations with Green, then nothing. If they had joined with the Greens who just wanted to get into government to implement then what would FF and FG have done?
FG already jumped the gun and said they would go into opposition
SO it would have been left with FF, so either they could say no and go back to the polls or try to negotiate. None of that happened because SF went missing.
You don't need to make up a hodge podge, no independents. The floating party was the Greens. PBP etc all would have wanted to jump in but SF could and should have got the Greens if they wanted to be serious about been in government.
You don't seem to understand Dail arithmetic. Even with every left 'party' on board the SF train (and with PBP that's a massive if) that only gets you to 68 seats. SF needed a bare minimum of 80 to form a government, and with FF and FG not playing ball the only place they could get those extra seats was the independent ranks.
Varadkar talking about FG rebuilding in opposition was just posturing; he always knew if FF came to him with a realistic offer he would have to accept, otherwise he would be pushing FF into the arms of SF.
IMO SF's political mistake was to engage in any sort of exploratory talks with other left parties about government formation as it allowed their enemies to spin this false narrative about them 'running away'. Immediately the result of the election were in they should have stated: "A government can only realistically be formed by two out of three from us, FF and FG. FG and FF won't talk to use, therefore we have nothing more to contribute."
I understand it exactly and my post was clear above. You just seemed to ignore that I said and went off about FG and FF instead. As I said, the Green's was the party to get and SF talked to them up first
Not been rude but I don't see the need to repeat what I already posted
Once more you need to lie.
I have never said 'everything is damaging if it involves the government'
I have praised their handling of Covid where they got it right and Brexit the same.
I went on about FF and FG because I was explaining that they in effect held the whip hand over SF. If they both refused to do business with SF it was impossible in practical terms for SF to form a government.
How do you think this is damaging for Coveney's position in the party?
FG in particular knew this and could spout away all they wanted about staying in opposition, knowing they would have FF come begging. Cynical politics if effective power clinging.
As I posted, FG said they would go into opposition so they are out.
If SF wanted to get into government. They could have got the Greens and then they had FF. So it was FF decision either to go into coalition with SF or go back to the polls.
Instead SF disappeared and FF/FG/Greens after a number of months of negotiations formed a government.
SF "won" the election and had the mandate to bring a government together. They done nothing, waited till the government was nearly formed and then complained.
That has already been explained a hundred times before, and a long time ago. The tactic now is running over old ground and repeating old nonsense to detract and wait for the new excuses or reasonings to surface for the current issues. Any old crap they will cling on to, in the hope that the current issues will be forgotten, if even for a brief moment.
Fairly obvious that he no longer has the ability to persuade or confidence of his cabinet colleagues.
The scandals involving him were always going to weaken him (unless you are the handwaving away faithful) and this is the physicals manifestation of it.
So you seem to be saying if SF pressed ahead with 'coalition building', FF would eventually have had to come on board. I see no good reason to believe this; if FF had wanted to go back on their pledge not to deal with SF they could have done so at any point after the election. Whatever smaller party or parties would make up the numbers in that coalition was very much a secondary issue, and there were various options on the table: Greens, Labour, SDs, Independents.
And as I posted, this was just throwing shapes by FG: at no point did they rule out a deal with FF.
How would this discuss mean the current issues are forgotten? what sort of a ridiculous statement is that?
It is a discussion forum, we are discussing a topic which because of the recent poll. The housing issues and health are discussed in great detail. If anything changes on them I am sure it will be raised here.
How could FG rule out a deal with FF? they had just come out of a government in which they are made a deal with FF.
As I posted a few times FF had the option either to join SF or go back to the polls. You have ignored this multiple times and gone back to FG. As I said FG was out of the picture, they came out and said they wanted to go into opposition.
Various options was not on the table. I again refer to my original post about SF and the Greens.
It was clear and mentioned by many journalists that FF would have dealt with SF on the night of the election when MM thought he had a commanding majority of seats, when that diminished somewhat as the count went on, FF shut the door again, not prepared to be equal or minor party in a coalition with SF.
This was a FF leader who also promised never to go into a coalition with FG...but what happened?
Well if FG were genuinely out of the picture and genuinely wanted to go into opposition why didn't they rule out a deal with FF; it would have clarified things for everyone. You don't seem to understand the political art of 'playing hard to get'.
It's not just me that keeps going back to FG, it's FF that did in the end, as you may have noticed from the makeup of the current government. It might reasonably be asked if they ever had any intention of doing anything else...
Re the smaller parties, why is it only the Greens who could have propped up a SF-FF government? Why not Labour, the SDs, or left-leaning Independents.
Why did FG come back into the picture? well what was the other option. The country was been ravaged by Covid. If you remember the grip of fear across the World was incredible. People afraid to leave their house, just driving into Dublin city centre and it was empty. It was shocking.
TD's get into politics to do good. It is very simple to me, Ireland needed our TD's to stand up and be counted and in the end FF/FG/Greens decided to do that.
That is while the rest knew how difficult it was going to be and hid. It was all over the radio that people would get lockdown fatigue and the government would be the ones who would bear the brunt of it. It was such a huge event it was always going to end up with the government doing some things wrong, that was a fact.
In regards to the Greens, I already explained, no interest in doing it again.
And it will be the same in after the next election if either of FF or FG refuse to talk to SF then SF will not be able to form a government unless they win over 70 seats and even then they would need to 2 out of 3 of PBP, SD, Lab or Greens and that would also be dependent on how they do? Also in saying that neither FF or FG will be able to form a government either unless they are getting over 70 seats between them.
The SD's vowed not to go in with FF/FG. If not for the Greens we'd possibly have had to go to the mattresses again. Only the self interested seem to want to do business with FF/FG.
When every party doesn’t want to go into government with you, maybe the problem is with that party and not everyone else
Just something to consider
Nobody wanted to go into government with FG before the last GE. Do we need to see MM saying it again?
Don't be politically naïve. If it suits they will all coalesce.
I have no idea why you think you can call people “politically naive” on a forum
Well it is politically naïve to say that in this country. The EVIDENCE is all there. If you are ignoring it, it is either because you have an agenda or you are naïve
Last time out, FF said they wouldn't go in with FG or SF...WHAT happened?
