If someone doesn't encounter these issues I would only assume they are not on the roads much or they are not paying attention (or incredibly lucky - or maybe I am unlucky noticing these things? Or I need to check my visibility or something. I guess its possible). btw - I am not talking people getting run over or anything serious, just those moments of confusion or having to slow down to account for someone not seeing you after they were waved on by another road user.
It seems there are plenty of people that have encountered this. I am not sure why you are missing these scenarios AJR but since the thread has now reached max pedantry, it's time to hit unsubscribe!
Maybe you should be telling drivers to stop acting erratically so?
If your suggestion that " there are examples of this "courteous driving style" causing issues every other week in the "near misses" thread in the cycling forum" was vaguely true, it would take you three minutes to find some examples, not thirty minutes. The fact that you're making such a big deal about it is a strong indicator that there is little truth. I can't recall a situation where I've seen courteous driving cause serious danger, either in person or on video. I'm not saying it could never happen, but I'd suggest it would be a fairly unusual event.
If a car is stopping, they use their brake lights to let traffic behind know what's going to happen. You might recall that I did mention about checking that there was no traffic coming behind that would be put in danger before deciding to stop, so I'm not talking about dropping anchors from 80-100 kmph in the middle of nowhere. If traffic is busy, there is often no reasonable opportunity for pedestrians to cross safely, unless someone decides to give them a break. There is a significant benefit, for the pedestrian.
Yes, the driver should possibly have seen the moped and made a different decision, but if the moped decides to breeze past any vehicle stopped in traffic for any reason, that's on them. My suggestion is not dramatically different from your suggestion in your final paragraph btw, except that it generally involves stopping for a few seconds to let the pedestrian cross.
If a car is going to turn, they indicate to let other traffic know what's going to happen. If a child runs out in the road, that's unavoidable and you have to emergency stop. You have to do it but it casuse a significant risk of cars behind crushing into you the benefit of mot hitting the child is obvious.
Stopping for no obvious reason, in free flowing traffic, work no indication on othertrafgic about what's going to happen and for no better reason than to let someone cross, has a significant risk, but very little benefit.
Stopping from 80 or 100kph is very dangerous and youd need a pretty good reasonnto do it. Leting pedestrians cross is not a good enough reason. Just drive normally and we'll all get along fine. Pedestrians can cross when it's safe and traffic can flow normally.
My mistake. When I first watched that I thought the colour change of the number plate of the 172 car @4-5 second mark was a flash. On second viewing, more likely to be the crappy resolution and changing ambient light. I agree, there is not enough evidence in that video to show the driver was being courteous to the other driver. You are asking me to spend half an hour or so to review another thread to support my claim.. yeah I'll get right on that.
I do however refuse to believe that anyone that is aware of their surroundings while using the roads in a major city on any regular basis has not encountered a variance of the above with flashing, or similar to wave pedestrians out onto oncoming cycle traffic. It happens so regularly (and yes, anecdotal evidence as I don't go filming every commute). Is this what you are saying?
No, the problem with that scenario is that the pedestrian will be injured. Because A) they didn't look, B) the moped driver couldn't stop i time and C) the driver who stopped created the entire situation.
It's all too easy for people to state that the driver is the impatient one for continuing, as it appears that they gain an advantage, but the truth is that good driver will have seen the moped in the scenario above, assessed that the might not stop, and that the pedestrian may not look properly and walk out.
When I drive in Dublin city centre, I could spend my day flashing and waving cars across my path. The cyclists coming up my left wouldn't thank me for it, I absolutely assure you of that, but I can rest easy knowing that I was being a courteous and patient road user, and the collision was 100% legally the fault of the car who I allowed cross my path.
Continuing on is of course not universally the right thing to do. If I see a cyclist stopped on the right side of a straight road, waiting to turn across my path, I'll take a look behind me, and if nothing is overtaking (on the left or right), check if anyone else might misinterpret a flash of the lights, lift off, flash, and maybe brake if I need to, to let them get out of that situation.
When a driver stops or slows to turn, the people behind him know why he's doing so. When people stop at random locations, other drivers get confused and will act erratically. This causes accidents.
The majority of posters on this thread think it's unsafe to stop randomly and drivers who behave like this are creating unsafe conditions where people can get hurt or killed.
This petrol station one?
There's no indication that the driver was flashed.
Can you link to any other such cases please?
Drivers stop or nearly stop in traffic all the time, perhaps to turn or pull into an entrance or driveway, or when an animal runs out, or when there is a cyclist that they can't pass safely. There's nothing particularly unusual about drivers having to slow or stop in traffic, other than in cases like this, that it is done specifically to accommodate pedestrians.
It is generally clear when someone is waiting to cross the road. I think I can recall one incident where I misinterpreted, and the person waved me on. No one died.
Well my main concern is safety of the pedestrians. It's safer to let them use their own judgment when crossing the road. Another poster said that he hates when people stop to let him cross, so how do you know the pedestrians even want people to stop?
Personally I'd feel terrible if I caused an accident by stopping to let someone cross. For example if I was shunted into them, or something like the moped scenario occurred. I wouldn't be deemed liable by the insurance companies, but ultimately if my vehicle made contact with a pedestrian or cyclist in this type of situation, I'd always have the guilt that it wouldn't have happened if I didn't stop.
It baffles me that you cant see why it's unsafe to stop a car in free flowing traffic unnecessarily.
Agreed. My point was in reference to the "courtesy" extended by one road user to another. The video clip I posted is car and pedestrian, but that seems to be a risk some are willing to take.
Let's not make this another cyclists vs drivers thread
How about I just say all car drivers are entitled pricks and we leave it there?
I think I'm clear on my driving and cycling style. I'm open to learning all the time but I'm not seeing any value or merit or anything to learn from in this thread.
Lol literally last week when a car flashed another oncoming car into a petrol station and nearly collided with the cyclist in the lane when it turned right across the traffic.
Or what about the examples I have above? You never experienced them?
Really? Any examples?
Like there are examples of this "courteous driving style" causing issues every other week in the "near misses" thread in the cycling forum...
I would asses each situation independently. But having said that more often than not I don't flash/wave or stop randomly.
It's just too busy these days and too much risk.
Of course, if driving or cycling I will create space in certain situations. I will make gaps in traffic and let others risk asses and decide if they want to use it. Thus is entirely different from stopping dead in flowing traffic and flashing people on.
Now regarding the default, in Ireland the pedestrians must wait. That's the default and therefore the expected (correct me if I'm wrong here).
Regarding the behaviour I'd like to see: I'd prefer the same as the new change the UK made to the highway code last month, which basically gives the right of way to pedestrians crossing at junctions and roundabouts (actually generally more rights to more vulnerable road users) If that became the default then people would know what to expect..
Unfortunately tho I don't think the Irish are ready for such a change, they can barely drive or cycle to the current rules of the road.. (can't even agree on what they are lol).
That's not my approach. I don't mind giving way to pedestrians when appropriate. If I'm pulling onto a road at a t-junction, I'd always give way to pedestrians. Same in residential areas where there are children for example. If there are no other cars, I'd sooner stop and let pedestrians cross. At least that way you know they have crossed so they won't walk out in front of you. Safe for everyone.
But these are urban examples where trafic is movibg slowly anyway. On a busy road traveling at 80 or 100km/hr, like in the video from the OP, it makes sense to just drive on and not make any moves unexpected by other motorists, and let the pedestrians cross when it's safe for them to do it.
I was so drawn to the flashing lights I didn't even see the family waiting to cross
That’s a great idea alright. Stop randomly in the middle of a busy road so traffic behind can plough into the back of you
I wouldn't be a fan of stopping in such situations like this either!
It is too dangerous & the family should find a safer place to cross!
Would you stop with the "default behaviour"! There is no default behaviour. What there is, is an assumption amongst some that they are entitled to absolute priority always.
In the OP's case they were given advance warning of something ahead. They still drove on when it is clear in the vid that the road is not a safe one to cross with small kids.
Should people driving along a road really believe that they have absolute priority along a stretch if road because it is not written in law that they do?
I know it's not a rule here. That's my whole point 🙄
Predictability works best.
What about the other examples I gave? You never encountered them?
Not everything is all about them evil drivers..
It’s not safe Andrew.
A little bit of courtesy to pedestrians/cyclists/motorists/whatever is fine but stopping traffic to let another road user cross like this can & does cause accidents.
It’s not a rule. It’s a courtesy.
I swear that most of the complaints have little to do with safety and everything to do with drivers not liking the idea of giving way to pedestrians for a few seconds.
That's the question tho isn't it?
Should or shouldn't. Currently it's not the default to stop, so it is unexpected. Not a surprise when it happens, no problem and can be dealt with.. but not the default behaviour.
And there are lots of examples of this going wrong.
How many times you been up a cycle lane and a vehicle in the driving lane flashes a car to right turn across the carriageway? Or flashes pedestrians across the road to have them walk into the cycle lane?
Of course being vigilant and reading the road ahead, these don't cause problems but it does increase risk.
Ah I don't think that's the case here. Doing the unexpected creates risk.
It appears to be a form of urban area. Someone crossing the road should not be unexpected tbh!
Not if it's not taught. Can't go making up rules and have them inconsistently applied.
The more of us that do it, the more expected it will get.
Ah I don't think that's the case here. Doing the unexpected creates risk. Currently in Ireland the unexpected is stopping for peds in this scenario.
For me the interesting question is: should we do what the UK have done and make it mandatory to stop at junctions/roundabouts to give way to more vulnerable road users?
I'd be happy to do so then that becomes the expected.
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