Agreed. And I fear Russian society at the grass roots level would have to shift pretty dramatically to change that. As I noted before in the thread and the example of nazi Germany; it was a horrible "blip" in their culture that lasted not much more than a decade. It was not their norm. If you had been around in 1900 and were asked which European nation was likely to go mad and for example seek to destroy Jews in Europe, Germany would not have been close to your first choice. Hitler and his cadre of bastards even had to come up with labyrinthine "blood laws" to work out who was really Jewish, because Jews were so integrated in the place through intermarriage. Places like the Balkans, Poland, Russia and Ukraine, where pogroms(a Russian word) were at times a national sport would have been way ahead of them.
Sadly with Russia the "strong man" rich beyond measure autocratic czars who rule with an iron fist and at best leave scraps to their people is their norm. Only once with the Russian Revolution did they say feck this and try to change and they nearly did. At first. And not long after and yet again Czar Josef the 1st ascends their throne. After the fall of the USSR, there was a small window where things might have changed again, but not long after and yet again Czar Vlad the 1st ascends their throne. Rinse and repeat.
Maybe the biggest country on earth is just too big? That to keep that empire together requires that sort of centralised autocracy? I don't know tbh. Maybe if Russia broke up into West Russia, the closest geographically and ethnically and culturally to Europe might have a chance? Can't see that happening any time soon though.
There is something fundementally wrong about the west standing by allowing Ukraine to be erased from the map by Russia. I know there's the stick of Russia threatening nuclear war (I highly doubt they s choose mutual destruction over Ukraine) but if they aren't going to confront Russia when they are attacking and killing civilians on a near industrial scale then when will they ?
I dread to know where the line is for NATO and the west at this point. We have front row seats at the min for genocide in the Ukraine and our "leaders" are more than happy to stand by and watch it in order to protect ourselves.
Allowing war crimes to happen and selling our souls for the sake of safety or atleast the illusion of it. It's a disgrace really.
I agree, Kaliningrad territory should not be made German again.
The long term aim of the EU should be to incorporate the territory into the EU. Economic sanctions on Russia will ensure the impoverishment of all of Russia, including Kaliningrad. Meanwhile, all around them EU states will be much better developed and wealthier. They might eventually decide to cast their lot with a progressive, forward looking, free and democratic entity rather than a failing empire.
It's not so much that I think it would be easy but at the end of the day, unless you can find a way to coexist, the other option is complete genocide of russia, so there is a moral imperative to keep trying no matter how long it takes or how many false dawns we see.
and the likelihood that the local population would be extremely hostile to any German administration
Didn't stop ye in the past 😋
I remember that disaster very well and it was one of the first times I had really sat down and talked with a few Russians(a friend of mine was going out with one). That clip had been all over the news the previous days and it was brought up in conversation. Terrible tragedy etc. What shocked me were the Russian women present - and this stuck with me down to today - whose attitude to that woman being sedated was "Ah well of course. She was being hysterical and upsetting people and disturbing the meeting. It was for her own good". To them this was somehow normal. They certainly didn't appear too shocked at all. Dismissive was the overwhelming vibe. My jaw was on the bloody floor at that.
Even more TBH because it was the women who held this attitude. I knew even then that Russian society, even after seven decades of communism which to be fair was ahead regarding gender equality than most of the West, at least on paper, was much more old style 1940's gender distinctions and roles. So if the men had come out with that I'd likely have chalked it up to that.
Yeah, it is total nonsense. Germany has accepted its current borders and there are now barely any Germans left in what was east Prussia. What happened in 1945 shouldn't be a template for the future of borders in eastern Europe unless we want total chaos. We need countries to respect the current borders and their neighbours sovereignty and not to undermine it further.
Hear hear!
Once again they are using anything they have in the warehouse. Why do you think they are shipping all of their tanks from the east over into Belarus now. Because they've wasted all of their other stuff.
They'll run out of soldiers shortly and mobilisation will be the only option there. They've probably a week left until that trigger has to be pulled.
Hold up! What makes you think we in Germany want it back?
Germany de-facto accepted its eastern borders in 1970, when Willy Brandt signed the Treaty of Moscow, something which was reiterated in the Two Plus Four Agreement in 1990. Given how much money would be required to bring the living standards in any returned Königsberg up to speed with even the poorest parts of present-day Eastern Germany, its exposed location and the likelihood that the local population would be extremely hostile to any German administration, returning that area to Germany would be akin to giving the country a cup of polonium-laced tea. I'd rather do without it.
It's more likely the Americans will go to war over this than hundreds of dead kids.
Russia can fairly be described as a (failing) imperial power that has no history of liberal democracy, ever. Tsarist Russia, Soviet Union, Putin's Russia, were never true democratic States, in any sense.
What makes you think that a Russian democracy will emerge, blinking in the sunlight of a golden dawn?
OK, let's say they were. The normal jumpsuit colour for Russian cosmonauts has been blue going way back. So months ago they made up new suits in yellow and blue. No link to Ukraine. Then this invasion kicks off and the world with a tiny handful of exceptions calls them on it and calls Russia tyrannical invaders over Ukraine. And rather than go to backup blue - and they always have backups, those guys have been in training for years, their commander has been in space four times already - they go with the now infamous around the world colours of the flag of Ukraine and the crew and their groundcrew, nobody around them, don't think this obvious change might be seized upon? Plus before they docked with the ISS one of the crewmembers is wearing the usual blue flightsuit. They changed into yellow before they entered the station. Some sort of message is very likely being sent. What that message is remains to be seen.
Absolutely. Another piece of land they stole and planted with subjects.
Tbh, if they are starting to use their experimental stuff, they must be running out of ideas.
The article you linked to didn't mention a UN security council ratified/organised peace keeping mission, only a NATO one.
If there is a UN peace keeping mission then we could offer assistance including boots on the ground, but given who are the permanent members of the security council I don't see a ratified operation appearing any time soon.
Merkel wanted cheap energy but wanted it farmed out to Russia so she could pander to the woke “green” Agenda and climate change cult at home by shutting down local nuclear and coal production.
The more I now reflect on her legacy the worse it gets.
My desire for integration is based on the proviso that there is a war in which the leadership of Russia is overthrown and we try again for a democratic Russia, it's a long road but if we just give up on them, we are asking for further trouble forever basically.
That's exactly what Europe tried to do in the 1990s and early 2000s, and it didn't exactly turn out to be a roaring success. We need to confront the fact that Russia has no interest in any political union that it cannot dominate at will. Given the rabid nationalism rampant in that country, even amongst generations that you'd think would be more open-minded, the west should not kid itself that Russia will become any type of reliable partner once Putin leaves the stage. Maybe things will change twenty to thirty years down the line but given what it took for Germany to give up on its fascist tendencies after a much shorter bout with extreme nationalism & fascism, I doubt I'll live long enough to see that happen.
Then again, I still remember sitting in the living room as a kid and watching events unfolding on a certain November night in 1989 together with my parents and grandma. I remember all of them saying that they'd never thought they'd live long enough to see the Berlin Wall come down. Here's hoping we see another such miracle.
Reports of hypersonic missile being used looks like a game changer, no defence for this type of thing
Hear hear. The fact that that Koenigsburg “exclave” they stole after WW2 is allowed still function to/from the “mainland” is ridiculous. Cut them off and hang them dry
He was upset last week at that. Precisely because they are wasting limited weapons. The fact those cruise missiles are depleted is why they are now digging into their weapons stores. With stuff like this even if experimental.
Kalingrad, also known as Konigsberg, founded by the Teutonic order 800+ years ago. Capital of PRussia. A German city, ethnically cleansed at the end of WW2. needs to be returned
All attempts of Ostpolitik and economic integration with Russia by the West can be deemed to have completely failed - look at Russian geopolitical behaviour for the last two decades. invasions of Georgia Moldova, and now Ukraine, supporting dictatorships in Belarus, removal of democratic frameworks and rule of law (as we in the EU understand the term) within Russia itself.
Not to mention the wholesale slaughter and destruction in Syria.
Everything the Russian kleptocracy has done is malevolent and inimical to any possible future association, let alone membership of the EU.
No, Russia must be pushed back and prevented from interfering in Europe. Any relationship will have to be arms length separation; the Russian leadership have proven themselves as totally untrustworthy, anti-democratic war mongers.
Only Russia is to blame for this, no one else.
@myfreespirit
Russia needs to be pushed back eastwards when they lose the war they started in Ukraine. The EU needs to expand eastwards, taking in all of Ukraine, Moldova, Armenia, Georgia, and perhaps the Russian Oblast of Kaliningrad (formerly Königsberg) for good measure.
Eh, Kaliningrad is literally part of Russia. I know it's an exclave, but it's still a part of Russia. The only way you could incorporate it into the EU would be to incorporate Russia, or else change its constitutional status either by diplomacy or by force.
Admitting Georgia and Armenia would be a mistake as those countries currently exist, and I think Russia/Turkey know that and keep those countries poor and half-destroyed through endless border disputes. If you let them in, you suddenly have a load of Balkan countries going, "Hey, WTF! You let them in, but we're stuck in limbo?!", you would have plenty of Georgians and Armenians coming west to look for work and live better (and who could blame them), but those countries would be unable to offer much of their own in terms of work. And you would have EU countries having to get involved when Russia or Azerbaijan/Turkey turn the screw again.
There are reasons why the EU have membership criteria in place, and if those are contravened through well-meaning charity, it would probably be the beginning of the end for the bloc, and a Europe without an EU is a bad place because of what the EU keeps a lid on.
@joseywhales - I think this is the wrong direction entirely. We should work to integrate Russia not further alienate it after any war. Imagine a European union with a modern democratic Russia at the center of it, supplying raw materials to industrial Europe. That's the long term vision, not building new iron curtains where mistrust conspiracy and propaganda can fester. I think this is probably the policy that Merkel was following when integrating with Russian gas, she was being optimistic. Unfortunately the Putin regime saw an olive branch as weakness and decided to destroy the tiny amount of trust that could have enhanced the opportunities and standard of living for all Russians.
Which is precisely why your sat nav to Russian integration will NEVER work. At least not whilst Putin is in power.
I think this is the wrong direction entirely. We should work to integrate Russia not further alienate it after any war. Imagine a European union with a modern democratic Russia at the center of it, supplying raw materials to industrial Europe. That's the long term vision, not building new iron curtains where mistrust conspiracy and propaganda can fester. I think this is probably the policy that Merkel was following when integrating with Russian gas, she was being optimistic. Unfortunately the Putin regime saw an olive branch as weakness and decided to destroy the tiny amount of trust that could have enhanced the opportunities and standard of living for all Russians.
Or: they are showing that they will use something so powerful on a relatively low value target.
Ukraine now has to re-consider whether to redeploy it's air defence/anti missile assets to cover more possible targets, reducing their coverage.
Also shows that anyone can be at risk, might impact morale of new recruits.
Could also just be desperate to show that they are "winning".
Same arsehole Playbook
Perhaps the Finns should also seek to have the illegally occupied territory that Russia stole from them in 1940/41 returned.
There may be a case to be made to repatriate Russians living in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, since they could be used as an excuse for Russian aggression in the future.
Remember that such harsh measures were taken in Bohemia, Moravia, and in Eastern Pomerania following WW2, when Germans were expelled from within the borders of Czechoslovakia and Poland.
Very unpleasant, but perhaps necessary, to ensure stable relations with a wholly untrustworthy Russia.
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