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Ireland's national debt 'one of the highest in the world' on a per capita basis

Pussyhands

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0222/1282354-national-debt-report/

The national debt stood at €237 billion at the end of last year.

This equates to €47,233 for every person in the country, which is described in the report as "one of the highest in the world."

_____________________________

It's a good thing FFG found that money tree in the last year or so. 🤑

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cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118676111#Comment_118676111

Because this is a socialist country that spends far too much on two types of social welfare. The first don't work, so we give them houses and thir kids iphones and xbox's that those who do work could only dream of, and the second type which are the public sector workers, who are some of the most highly paid of their type in the world. So much so that when Ireland was looking for bailouts because of the banking crisis, the lenders asked why do you pay them so much?

"But if the UK public sector is full of "fat cats", the Irish public sector is full of "morbidly obese cats".

Tomorrow the Irish public face the most austere budget in the nation's history and public sector pay and pensions is at last on the agenda. But it is highly unlikely there will be any cuts that see top earners taking home less than the prime minister.

So back to Fingleton's pay of £255,000. It's not like for like, but the following will give you a flavour of the runaway public sector pay in Ireland.

Runaway pay won't be really tackled in Ireland

The highest paid public sector boss in Ireland takes home a staggering €752,568 (£637,000) – that is Electricity Supply Board chief, Padraig McManus. The average salary at the ESB is €70,000 - making them the highest paid electricity workers in the world.

The second highest paid public sector boss is Declan Collier, the head of the Dublin Airport Authority who is on a package worth €568,100 while the head of An Post is on €500,000 and the head of the forestry commission, Coillte is on a tidy €417,000.

In fact, so much financial cholesterol is coursing through the veins of the Irish public and semi-state sector, a report earlier this summer found that 66 public servants in Ireland receive more than €500,000 each including 37 judges, the head of the controversial National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, and the head of the National Treasury Management Agency, which looks after the country's public finances."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2010/dec/06/ireland-public-sector-fat-cats

"BAILOUT officials will find some public servants earn over 40pc more than eurozone colleagues as they assess whether new pay cuts are justified.

Senior sources have revealed that IMF and EU officials are carrying out a benchmarking exercise using data from international bodies, including the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)." https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/warning-over-imf-exercise-to-benchmark-pay-with-eu-26723325.html

"As part of this process, high-level European and IMF bureaucrats have compiled a list of top-level public sector pay and are believed to be deeply unimpressed by the huge disparities between the packages secured by European public sector mandarins and their Irish counterparts.

A series of recent surveys by government bodies such as Forfas has revealed that Ireland's doctors, nurses, police and teachers are among the highest-paid public servants in the world.

Top Irish professionals such as university lecturers, judges and hospital consultants earn twice as much as their European counterparts and Ireland also has the highest-paid electricity workers in the world.

Top European bankers such as Jean-Claude Trichet have pointed out these disparities to Irish ministers complaining about the high interest rate on the IMF/EU/ECB bailout.

The figures, which have been compiled by the EU and the IMF, also reveal that over recent years, the rate of increases in Irish public sector wages has been 100 per cent higher than that experienced by other EU countries." https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-imf-slams-outrageous-public-pay-rates-26717222.html

And of course what does the Irish government do when there is €150,000 debt per income tax payer? Why it awards the public sector pay rises. You couldn't make it up.

charlie_says

Thinking of setting up an NGO that doesn't really do much but talks about the national debt and how if we were to borrow more we could reduce it, think I could get a heap of funding from the government.

Anyone want to be on the board?

Atlantic Dawn

There's government ads on the radio telling you that eating too much makes you fat, that a car should be serviced, etc etc etc, common sense but costing tens of millions a year, we simply can't afford these pet projects to blow our money with. You get whingers wanting schools to be ripped apart to instal about 5 different designations of toilet based on what people want to relate to depending on what is in fashion this month, again would cost tens of millions.

Then you get children with Scoliosis awaiting tiny sums of money to fund operations that will ensure they are not a burden on the tax payer for life and funding isn't there.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118676173#Comment_118676173

Oh ok, so you would propose to increase spending even further while squeezing every penny from people already burdened with the cost of living. Not to mention causing the FDI that contributes so much to our country in taxes to leave.

Thanks for confirming what a disease socialism is, which needs to be crushed. Perpetuated by people who believe in fairy tales and magic money trees.

Grow up.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118676111#Comment_118676111

Just double the 'capita' and half the 'per capita' debt.

Mr. teddywinkles

Well when ya see 100million being thrown out at this shite and another 500 million thrown at another load of shite. Is it any surprise.

Instead of paying off this debt in the good times. No just lash it around like its confetti. Wait till the hard times come a knocking.

Convinced these shisters in government couldn't give two fooks about climate change.

Just extra tax to pay the interest on the never end of borrowing and wasteful spending.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677026#Comment_118677026

How is that achieved?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677203#Comment_118677203

"How is that achieved?"

Sex and inward migration.

timmyntc

they will allow inflation to erode their debts, and sure who cares if actual people suffer? Its the economy stupid

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234284/irelands-national-debt-one-of-the-highest-in-the-world-on-a-per-capita-basis

...bring it on, debt is the money supply, no debt = no money supply! we need to embrace public debt, as we have become over reliant on the private sector money supply, the credit supply, which is primarily used for speculation in asset markets, driving their prices even higher, property being a perfect example. but increasing the public money supply going forward must be used for productive means, and not used to further increase asset prices such as property.....

....oh and we need to largely ignore the neoclassicals that always panic over the public money supply, siting the end of the world with its use and increases, as theyll just keep leading us into credit fueled asset booms and busts!

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677335#Comment_118677335

This nonsense again.

I suppose the greeks were geniuses to embrace public debt too, look where that got them?

Italy too, a big proponent of public debt - they are barely solvent, and if interest rates rise they may well default on most of their debts too.

techman1

Rather than now reigning in the budget deficits now that covid is over and inflation is rising, the government has extended out substantial budget deficits of 5 billion euros a year out to 2026.

All those promises to the green party of cutting carbon and retrofitting are massively expensive and unaffordable. Putin's adventurism in the Ukraine could derail most of that anyway if interest rates and energy prices are forced ever higher.

plodder

I wonder who's going to be in power when it hits a quarter trillion? Nice round figure and an interesting milestone/millstone around our necks. Though I thought these international comparisons were supposed to be done now against tax revenue rather than population, which is a better measure of our ability to pay it back, or keep it rolling over at least. Does such a comparison exist?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677438#Comment_118677438

...you do realise, a significant proportion of greek, and even irish debt is whats called 'odious', it was in fact effectively forced upon us, in order to protect plutocratic interests, primarily within the financial sectors! greece is stuck in a perpetual 'extend and pretend' situation, in which it has no means to truly pay back these debts, during 2015, it was in fact realised creditors didnt actually want their money back, that the situation was orchestrated so that other states, primarily the piigs, would not stand up in conjunction with the greeks, and force the creditors to rethink, it worked! yes, greece is indeed in a far worse situation now, extremely high unemployment amongst its youth, extremely high and unpayable debts, with no true means to pay them back, ever, and declining gdp!

italy, italy has never been able to cope with the implementation of the euro, the fact that a monetary system was implemented without any true surplus recycling mechanism in place, a central banking system that doesnt represent the interests of its citizens, and has more or less aligned itself with the same plutocratic interests mentioned above. italy has a traditional manufacturing economy, since the implementation of the euro, it has been unable to compete against the mite of other euro countries, primarily germany, in which the euro is truly just a rebranded Deutsche Mark, and since it gave up the powers of its central bank upon entering the euro, it has had no tools in order to counteract this, i.e. devaluing etc. all of this in turn has forced italy to take on even more public debt, in order to survive.....

once again, this is what happens when you become over reliant on the private sector money supply......

Australian Private Debt.jpg

Credit and Debt USA.png

Ireland Debt.jpg

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677335#Comment_118677335

Did u read this stuff in a book or what?!

We were the third most indebted country in the developed world per head pre covid. We spent the most per head on COVID in Europe so may have hit second place I dunno. Big changes coming next year to the golden goose corporation tax and yet the answer is always to spend more!

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677288#Comment_118677288

Inward migration of people who are skilled/educated enough to pay for themselves are a plus, contributing to the success of the economy. Unskilled immigration or those without decent education, are not. They might pay their daily costs, but they remain a burden due to their demands on State services. It takes a decent wage to supply enough in tax, and consumer spending to make up the difference. Unskilled labour is also far less secure, and far more likely to end up on welfare at different periods, due to the instable manner of that kind of employment.. and so increasing the cost to the State over time.

Sex, and having children by itself won't solve much, without the means to educate and ensure that they become productive members of society. In addition to remaining in the country, and not emigrating.

A larger population brings about more costs. Yes, it brings about the potential for increased revenue/productivity, but children don't spring into being, able to pay for themselves. There's an investment involved, both by parents and by the State. A long term investment in many cases.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677609#Comment_118677609

...this info comes from many respected sources, some of which realised the 08 crash was in the post prior, primarily for the reasons explained, mainly the over reliance on private debt/credit....... the only way to counteract this, is to embrace pubic debt, but to make sure it is used for 'productive means', and not for further speculation, and for inflating asset prices such as property!

Cyclingtourist

We need more people to reduce the 'per capita debt'. How about importing some Ukrainians? It would certainly be better than paying them thousands to produce Patricks and Patricias.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677630#Comment_118677630

again, debt is the money supply, all money begins its life as debt, this debt is on balance sheets, in both the public and private domains, and since a lot of public works is carried out by the private sector, it has been used to create work and jobs in both the public and private sectors....

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677026#Comment_118677026

Like Burkina Faso.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677630#Comment_118677630

Debt per tax payer is an even more eye opening statistic.

Importing more net drains on the states finances is not a smart move

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677625#Comment_118677625

Who keeps the public debt pump going when investors and other countries refuse to loan to us if we are seen to be too indebted already?

lalababa

Italy is around 45k/person and the US is around 77k/person. Seems to be the norm these days..as long as a country is not refused credit or has too high an interest rate. Ireland would be in a better position than most if the worst came to the worse.

We probably should be able to not have a deficit if we put our minds to it ..and thats with nobody going hungry or getting cold!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677657#Comment_118677657

...its common for public debts to be continuously rolled over by using long term perpetual bonds, rolling over private debt is far more difficult, as we experienced in 08, our rate of growth of private debt was unsustainable, confidence was lost, and the whole thing fell over. we re currently in another potential private debt bust, with looming rate hikes, baring in mind private debts are now higher than at the height of the previous global credit bubble, the fear is, when rates are hiked, these private debts become unmanageable, and kaboom! theres actually nothing stopping central banks from buying up government and other bonds, in order to maintain some sort of stability, and i suspect thats whats gonna happen, in order to keep the show on the road, but everyone is in a big waiting game now.....

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677716#Comment_118677716

DO you know how "rolling over" public debt works?

You must pay the interest, and then you refinance by borrowing some more and using the newly borrowed monies to repay the old borrowed monies. You are totally dependent on someone actually wanting to lend to you, which is only the case if you do not default and you have the capacity to repay. The more you owe, the more you have to pay on interest, and the less likely it is people will lend to you.

Thankfully we have never reached the point of being considered a credit risk, but the idea that public debt can just be taken on like its a good thing is total nonsense. Absolute stupidity.

kk.man

IMHO I think if Central Banks rise interest rates to the point countries get into trouble the only solution would be debt forgiveness en masse. Its the only logical way out. I never saw a finance minster so relaxed as Pascal after spending 30 odd billion of debt ! having said that all western finance ministers seemed to be of the same school.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677716#Comment_118677716

So it's the central bank that keeps buying Government bonds on the never, never.

Who funds the central bank when investors and other countries refuse to lend to us?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677734#Comment_118677734

again, debt is the money supply, we ve always run our economies on such systems, this has been occurring for millennia now, being indebted isnt necessarily a bad thing, provided there are agreements between creditors and debtors, but its critical that these debts are used for productive means, in which we have not being doing very well. a large proportion of debts, in both the public and private domains has been used for speculation, in particular in property markets, simply inflating prices, and since credit primarily comes from the private domain, its hardwired to maximise returns, at all costs, which tends to lead into high risk activities, derivatives trading etc etc, these type of activities only truly benefits creditors, and screws everybody else, particularly in crashes. again, we now have enough proof, an over reliance on the credit supply is in fact highly dangerous for everyone, including creditors...

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677783#Comment_118677783

Being indebted is a bad thing - the more debt you have, the more debt servicing costs you have, which eats into your expenditure.

Taking on debt to fund capital expenditure is fine for short term financing, taking on too much debt is not and has never been, a good thing. And no we have not always run economies on large public debts. Honestly all your posts on this subject come across as inane rambling that never leads anywhere.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677643#Comment_118677643

We could give preference to Ukrainian oligarchs and anyway 'net drains' often become 'net gains'. Statistics aren't always 'eye opening' sometimes, as with this thread, they're simply misleading.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677783#Comment_118677783

You have not answered my question.

Who funds the Central Bank to keep buying bonds?