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Overwork

KI2013

Like many others I'm sure, I had a pretty terrible year at work last year - all remote and very long hours (I work for a law firm so this is the norm, although even allowing for that this was excessive). I had worked nearly 3,000 hours by the end of the year. To add to the hard work, there were a couple of "crunches", where jobs weighed against each other and I couldn't do both - this meant letting a very senior person down.

Someone from HR caught me at the end of the year and asked what had happened (good question - not sure why one of the partners I work for hadn't asked it sooner). We agreed it wouldn't happen again - I would try to get my hours down and say no to work if necessary. I then had a couple of weeks off at Christmas.

Fast forward a month and a half, and things go quiet for a week or so. I'm immediately offered some new work - despite everyone involved knowing my existing work will likely get busy again in a couple of weeks. I think (for whatever reason, timing wise) I'm starting to feel the effects of 2021 - have been struggling to sleep through the night and generally am very tired.

I'm minded to push back against the new work, but also mindful that this is unlikely to be positively received. Interested to know what others would do in this situation. Part of me thinks they should be glad I'm not signed off/haven't resigned, but I know real life doesn't work that way. I am happy to keep doing my existing work - it is interesting - but just don't want to go back to a 2021 type situation where this new work means I'll have to work all the time/let someone down.

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Big Bag of Chips

Moved from Personal Issues Forum.

Please read the local charter before replying.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058233901/overwork

Surely speaking to your supervisor re. work load is the first port of call no?

dennyk

I had worked nearly 3,000 hours by the end of the year.

This is illegal, if you actually worked that many hours and you're not including annual leave and such in that total. That works out to an average of 57 hours a week, far more than the 48 hours a week maximum defined in the law.

You need to start setting firm boundaries on your working time and sticking to them. You don't have to be entirely unreasonable about it and go tools down at 17:00:00 on the dot every day or anything, but you must stop working excessive hours as a matter of course. Your employer keeps assigning you more and more work because that work is getting done, so as far as they're concerned, it's not an issue. They're only going to care when the work stops getting done.

You should start by working out how long your normal tasks take to do, and then when your employer assigns you something new, figure out how long it'll take and what you'll be able to do within your normal contracted working hours each week. Take that to your manager and say (in writing) "I've been asked to do A, B, and C this week, but I'll only have time to do two of those tasks. Which ones do you want to prioritise?" If your manager refuses to answer or insists that you must complete them all, then you should use your own best judgement, get the tasks completed that you think are most important and that you can complete during your normal hours, and let the rest go unfinished and let the chips fall where they may. Keep your manager informed; send them an email along the lines of "I'll be working on A and B this week, and as such I won't have time to complete C until <date>." If they try to throw you under the bus by pulling some "Well, KI2013 said they were going to do all of that this week!" shite on you later, you'll have your emails as evidence that they were well aware of the situation.

It's going to be very painful for your employer, who has grown accustomed to you doing the work of two or three employees yourself. There will no doubt be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and possibly some harsh (and entirely unfounded) words from them about your performance or work ethic, but you need to ignore it and don't let yourself get bullied into overworking again. Don't allow them to make you feel bad about setting reasonable boundaries, either. You are not "letting them down" by refusing to work an unreasonable number of hours a week; they are letting you down by making unreasonable demands, and letting themselves down by failing to hire the necessary staff to operate their business properly. The fault lies entirely with them, not with you.

KI2013

It was actually 60 hrs per week averaged. I work in a law firm so we opt out of the Working Time directive.

My current issue is that things are in a dip between being very busy and potentially getting busy again. I was hoping not to be assigned further work until it's clear how the existing work will pan out, but I have been assigned something new and am wondering whether to push back - mostly with a view to avoiding a disaster like last year. But I'm worried that if things don't get as busy as anticipated, it will look bad (and may be taken poorly anyway). The whole thing does feel like a. bit of a betrayal by my employer.

C3PO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662909#Comment_118662909

60 hour weeks is not unusual in law or financial firms … and in many IT project teams also! Push-back could be career limiting. Not saying this is how it should be but it’s reality!

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663308#Comment_118663308

If you are working up 50% overtime on a regular basis, you don't need to about 'career limiting', you'll have burned out long before it will be an issue. I have spent 30+ years working in the financial services area on both IT projects and various investment related roles and I can tell you without hesitation working 50% overtime on a regular basis in not usual - it's the exact opposite. You might have to do it for a couple of weeks per year but that is it.

Anyone who thinks they can build a career work 50% OT on a regular basis, need to cop on, look after their health and find a new job.

LLMMLL

I don't know anything about the legal sector but could you take on the work with a proviso that someone else will take it over if your other project requires more attention?

gameoverdude

As Jim said, you won't be able to keep this up. Prioritise, or get your boss to do so. If everything is a priority, nothing gets done.

You think you'll get kudos for all the hours? Results are the key. One person pissed off with you and two happy...better than three pissed off with you.

Best thing I learned to do is say no (in a professional way) and go about my business. If asked to work an extra 20/40 hours a week, don't make excuses and explain what you're doing in your private life after hours. Just not available.

In saying that, there will be occasions you will need to do extra, but this should be an exception and make sure they know this. Favours soon become the norm.

I have been there and effected my health, both physically and mentally as well as relationships...don't be like a younger me!

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663219#Comment_118663219

Pushing back doesn't always mean saying no.

Learning to open up planning conversations about capacity and resources is a valuable skill in itself. You've already done the hard work - you've looked forward and identified a potential bottleneck that could hold back both pieces of work. You've anticipated an issue. You just need to learn to communicate that to senior management/partner in a pragmatic, straightforward and palatable way.

My advice would be to use language that dissociates you from the problem. Make it sound like it's *their* issue (because it is) and you're helping then with it. And try to look at it that way yourself too - you're doing them a favour.

Don't say "I need help", "I've got a problem", "I can't/won't/don't...".

Use "We need to discuss timelines", "I have X amount of capacity and I anticipate that at point Y the two pieces of work will have conflicting demands", "how do *you* want to manage the timeline on the second piece of work when the first is my primary task", "I can commit to getting X, Y, Z done but I'll need some kind of support or to hand it over to someone else when we get to this other point in the job". Don't let it get personal or emotional, it's just a fact that there's a limited number of hours in the day, and for the sake of the quality of the work you're bringing it to management's attention.

Keep a record of dates etc. of these conversations and if/when the poo hits the fan anyway, you can push it back to them as an already understood issue "as discussed". At a minimum you can show that you offered solutions well before things went wrong.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664196#Comment_118664196

The more you do, the more that is expected. The OP has clocked up the best part of 6 month overtime last year, they have no capacity to take on anything else. That is no way to live and they need get some perspective and learn how to manage their working life because no one else will do it for them - every employer will take advantage of your good nature.

Typical things they need to learn to say:

I appreciate your urgency, but I'm leaving in 15 minutes as it is now 17:00, had YOU come to me earlier today perhaps we could have done something like agreeing some overtime, as it is I will address it in the morning if YOU wish.
I'm sorry I have no capacity at present, however if YOU wish to change my priorities we can discuss this and I will work on it in favour of what I'm doing now.
I have three projects on the go right now, I only have capacity for two - which two would YOU like me to prioritise?

You team lead is responsible for the groups work load, make sure it remains their problem - that is what they get paid the big bucks for.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664254#Comment_118664254

Sadly too many of us end up there and it would be nice if some managed to avoid it with a bit of common sense. Don't leave it until you have been signed off with a burn out to learn perspective.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664638#Comment_118664638

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I think your first point could be put a bit better if in a discussion. But 99% agree.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664638#Comment_118664638

I think we're actually agreeing with each other. OP does have capacity right now but believes he may not in the future. So your "I'm sorry I have no capacity as present..." Statement is what they can say to their manager at the point they have no capacity.

Alkers

How much are you getting paid for this?

It's a job seekers market at the moment, if you're good at your role you can probably move and get more money

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664697#Comment_118664697

There is also an opportunity here. They are relying on them so much, so turn it into a positive for the OP.

Can they co-op additional resources in to look after day to day stuff, so they can look after more important stuff. "Ki2013 is looking after a priority project, we need support for them so they add extra value to our customers"(you need your managers buy in on this). Sounds like bs and I don't know your seniority, but try it out. Make yourself look more important, not necessarily can't be replaced in your role.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663308#Comment_118663308

And common if you're self employed.

C3PO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664884#Comment_118664884

Yep … there too!

TimeToDance

The problem is you've worked 3000 hours and yet you're left with a mind-set that you've let them down and you agreed with that. **** that and feck HR (has there ever a more useless department). Partners in big law firms get through it by everyone beneath them drowning with work, stress and questions that nobody has time to deal with.

There's no such thing as giving people reduced workloads because it just isn't possible, you're either: (a) put on new work, (b) existing work expands hugely or (c) you're contacted about work you did previously and expected to jump at new things arising from that too. Nobody cares who does it so long as it gets done.

So it sounds to me like they've let you down. If you're working these hours, they've a resourcing problem and they're either going to lose you (as usually happens) or you're going to snap under the pressure. 250 hours a month for a year is not sustainable. You're probably exhausted.

The question you need to ask yourself is do you want to rise up through your company? If so I think you need to tell them in a polite way no or for them to come with a solution among themselves. If you're someone who say yes to everything, they'll be more than happy to pile it on and then when it comes to crunch time and you're being slaughtered with work and then evaluations they'll try and say you're not on top of your work or whatever.

Companies don't respect people who go above and beyond. They just expect these people to be happy with their lot. Set your ground rules and say no. Or say I'm working on X Y and Z right now. If you want me to work on this, you need to speak with the people running XYZ and come to a solution because I can't commit to all of them.

At the end of the day, if you're good enough or they're afraid you'll leave they'll make you partner or whatever to squeeze more from you. And if not they'll have ready baked reasons why it wasn't to be. Look after no. 1 because nobody else will.

This is the way these places operate. Punishing work all year especially December and then they throw you a few euro in January to keep you sweet. That and your bonus won't mean much when the taxman takes half and your personal health and life is in a bad place.

C3PO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664177#Comment_118664177

I also work in financial services and at least two departments in the company I’m with routinely work 60 hour weeks.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664998#Comment_118664998

Happy with it? Any extra benefits?

C3PO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665060#Comment_118665060

I can’t imagine too many people are happy to work 60 hour weeks but these guys are very well paid!

gameoverdude

Who are? Do we know what level is the OP at? What's well paid?

TimeToDance

What good is a fat bank account if you've no life and high blood pressure. It's the same reason why finance and law is a man's game. It was never that women were overlooked, it's that they can't be kept. They won't tolerate the demands.

Once children arrive, priorities become a lot clearer and women move on elsewhere for more balance. This notion of women being able to have it all is for me a big lie pedalled around to induce guilt.

KI2013

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663308#Comment_118663308

I can't speak to finance, IT or self employment but 3k hours in a year is definitely not normal in a law firm - and I am in a top London law firm. 60 hours in this context means 60 chargeable hours - not 60 hours total. Even if that was 60 hours total, I would be shocked if people are routinely averaging that amount of time per week if a year. There are studies which show that people overestimate their working hours when they are not tracked, which I am inclined to believe.

I am mid-level - heading towards (slightly more) senior status. Pay is good - 6 figures. I'm on the fence about push back - I can see the argument that it is career limiting - but is the lack of self respect that failure to push back not also limiting in some way?

TimeToDance

This is it OP. I had a feeling you meant 3000 chargeable hours which is to say this doesn't include all the nonsense general work that you have to do that isn't billed. And there's always a lot of that.

I think you need to look after yourself OP. 3000 chargeable is going to burn you out and all in all it's probably 4000 total which is insane. You need to have a chat, maybe a group call with your bosses and say look these are the projects I'm doing right now. If I also take this and this also on, there's a good chance I won't be able to prioritise my work in the way it needs to be done because I'm on these other deals.

It's their problem then. They need to have a conversation among themselves. It doesn't fall on you to decide these things but it will if you accept everything and other works lapses. Ultimately, you have to realise you aren't special to these people. They burn through people year after year and they've seen you x100 times over the years.

If you like the job give yourself a chance. It's a show of strength despite it seeming like a difficult conversation to have. If they aren't able to address these issues in a way in which you can then help them, that's on them and you should consider your options. But it's hard to accept that when you're doing the hours you're doing.

If you get sick or unwell due to work they will toss you aside and forget about you. And you'll feel even worse then. Remember only the company and the £££ matters, nothing else.

Its about being tactful in how you approach. It's not a push back, it's saying Nigel, this is what's on my plate. I'm doing this for Boris and this for Frederick. I can take this on for you but only if I'm taken off something else because I've committed to these projects and they will take ally capacity.

Respect your time and you will get respect. Let them bury you and they will. And they'll make you feel bad in yourself doing do.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664884#Comment_118664884

There is little point in being self employed if it cost your health and your work live balance.

dennyk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663219#Comment_118663219

This is Ireland, not the UK; there is no provision to opt out of the weekly working hours regulations of the Organisation of Working Time Act. There are conditions under which it might be possible to use a different period than the standard four month one for calculating average weekly hours, but even with a Labour Court approved collective bargaining agreement, the maximum calculation period is still 12 months, and if you've worked 3000 hours in a year, you're well over the 48-hour limit even for a 12-month period. Unless they're going with the "Well, we're a big important LAW FIRM and therefore the LAW doesn't apply to us..." argument, in which case I'm sure the WRC will be happy to explain to them why that isn't the case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663308#Comment_118663308

That is how it is because employees are allowing themselves to be exploited. The law is on your side and you shouldn't be afraid to stand up for your rights and push back on your employer's unreasonable demands.

NSAman

Honestly, crazy stuff.

i worked 60-80 hours a week to build a business(es), some weeks it was 100 hours a week. You will only last so long doing that.

if it is for yourself then fine, if it is for someone else forget it. The days of corporate heads demanding more from workers is gone. My staff sometimes work extra, but they get time off in lieu, or extra pay… their choice. The work gets done, clients are happy and staff morale is superb.

personally, I would be cutting back, telling your superiors that work is too much and demanding that new work go elsewhere. What’s the worst they can do? Fire you? I don’t think so.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665713#Comment_118665713

:) It's how many people live you know. Better than sitting on yer ass on the dole or arguably expecting the state or some other business to fund your life :)

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668091#Comment_118668091

Really, your alternative to a reasonable work life balance is to go on the dole......