I believe that if the "far right" ever take off in this country, it will be because of people like O'Riordain trying to force their ultra woke ideas on middle Ireland. https://www.thejournal.ie/labour-schools-education-5675662-Feb2022/
I could give you a load of reasons, but really it came down to having been educated in an all-boys environment myself, and I did well for myself out of it, I wanted the same for my son.
those of us who went to all-boys schools will probably just repeat that our own experiences were reflective of the concept, but there are so many variables at play. i know that of about six friends i've stayed in contact with from school, who were approached by the school for marketing purposes 15-20 years after we went there, all answered 'no' to the question 'would you be willing to send your son here'. but that was probably to some extent down to the chap in charge of the school when we were there.
but again, you could easily argue that my particular group of friends won't be a representative slice through the school population.
anyway, point being - very few people are going to be able to contribute to this argument meaningfully with an 'i went/didn't go to a single sex school and my experience was negative/positive' because we don't have a meaningful comparison to make. we can't say we'd have been better off with the alternative because we didn't experience it.
What sort of experience do you have of mixed sex schools?
This single sex is competitive, mixed sex is cooperative, can you please elaborate on what this actually means?
I too interview extensively in the private sector, both graduate level interviews and industry hires. I can tell you now, the school someone goes to as a child makes no difference whatsoever. It is completely irrelevant. I would genuinely find it very amusing if anyone ever thought they were getting an advantage because they had a particular school, or a particular type of school listed on their CV (I would find it a bit weird to see someone list their school history on their CV in the first place).
You weren't educated around girls if you went to an all boys school. I would think that is fairly obvious.
With regard to your own child, it is impossible for you to know if the single sex is making any difference whatsoever. Your child will never be educated in mixed sex, so you have absolutely nothing to compare to. What you have now is confirmation bias. Your child is doing well, your child goes to a single sex school, you have decided that your child is doing well because they go to a single sex school. You cannot back this up, it would be impossible. For all you know, your child could be doing even better in a mixed sex environment, you'll never know.
From decades of experience in education at primary, secondary and third level, social work, community work and working in the private sector, from talking to people and interviewing people for employment and knowing their educational background. That’s how I come to the conclusion that there’s a different culture in single-sex schools than there is in mixed-sex schools, where in single-sex schools are more competitive, and mixed-sex schools are more cooperative.
I don’t think students supporting, motivating and driving each other in terms of academic or sporting achievements only happens in single-sex schools, I know it happens in mixed-sex schools too, but the approach and application in single-sex schools is from a more competitive perspective, whereas in mixed-sex schools the focus is more on cooperation.
I was educated around girls? Did you not read the part of my post where I referred to having had many friends who were girls when I was in school? I certainly don’t feel I missed out on anything if that’s what you mean? There’s no question I’d have had a completely different life had I been educated in a mixed-sex school, but whether I’d have done better or worse for myself though is something nobody can know with any certainty as every individual is different.
I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge that some children don’t thrive in single-sex schools, and some children don’t thrive in mixed-sex schools. When it came to my own child’s education though, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree - turns out it doesn’t, but that seems like a rather obvious point to make. I expect it would be understandable that I would prioritise my own child’s education over the education of children who aren’t mine. It’s up to those children’s parents how they choose to educate their own children.
The only thing I do know with any degree of certainty is that most parents or guardians will do their best within their means for their own children’s education, regardless of the outcomes of national and international surveys and studies and all the rest of it, so this idea -
Honestly, in the future we'll all look back on this and segregating children based on gender to educate them differently will be viewed just as absurdly as all the other absurd reasons that were once used to keep different children apart.
People have been saying the same thing for generations across different societies and cultures, and people have been arguing the opposite for just as many generations. I don’t particularly view either the choice of education in single-sex or mixed-sex schools as absurd or anything else, it’s simply a question of parents making choices for the education of their own children and really not giving a fiddlers for what Aodhán has to say on the matter.
I currently teach in a single sex school and while I really enjoy it I can't see any advantage of it being single sex rather than mixed. School life should reflect real life.
Well they are. In our case it was the only school that would take my son. All the co ed were way over subscribed and not one parent in my son's class wouldn't prefer co ed but the church still rules the roost on this one. Half the parents don't want religious involvement either but that is for another thread.
Give me a choice and I would never choose single sex. Unfortunately the choices aren't there for many of us.
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There weren’t any concerns about him mixing with girls or any of that nonsense, he’s loads of friends who are girls, as I did in my time in school too with plenty of extracurricular activities and clubs like Foróige, Comhaltas, sports like rugby and hurling, and the Presentation girls used to show up to support the team.
There’s a different culture in single-sex schools than there is in mixed-sex schools. It’s far more competitive for one thing, and the students often motivate, support and drive each other, whether it’s academic or sporting achievements.
To anyone suggesting that single-sex schools don’t prepare children for post-school life, or that single-sex schools impede children’s social development, they’re talking utter rubbish. There’s no consensus on these issues because proponents of either single-sex or mixed-sex schools are measuring different issues in different ways, according to their own standards of what they imagine is most beneficial for the kind of society that they envision.
In any case, Aodhán is talking out his arse again. There just isn’t a hope of what he’s talking about ever becoming a reality, never mind in the next 10 to 15 years 🙄
Segregation based on gender for education is not exclusive to religion.
Considering the falling grades for boys in Ireland, we might need more segregated schools, not less... but I guess that doesn't matter as long as people can complain about religion.
does that weirdo think this is the main concern of 99.9% of the population?
the founding fathers of the labour movement would turn in their graves
I'd be more conservative on Justice/Criminality, immigration, etc.
The parents generally don't give a rats-ar$e about communion. But they care deeply about the party, and the dosh that their kid will collect.
I'm well aware that same-aged young people are educated together. That's why girls, sorry young-PWW, generally do better in schools with other similar people. Trying to match people with different maturity levels in the same classroom is a crock.
i suspect this may have already been mentioned, but how about they first start removing state supports for private single sex schools?
i mean, it's bonkers that private schools which charge thousands a year in fees still get all their teachers paid for by the department.
I suppose O'Riordain would consider himself a Liberal. But like a lot of Irish Liberals, he is fond of banning things he does not approve of. Is there any evidence that single-sex schools produce worse educational outcomes? I don't have the source but I think that some studies have shown that girls do better in single-sex schools. If there is no evidence that they do any harm and that parents went them then banning them is plain wrong.
And watch out for another absurd culture war: should we ban the term "single-sex" and refer to "single-gender" schools instead?
Exactly this for me, and I went to an all-boys school for second-level.
Don't get me wrong, it was great craic and I'm still very close with a good crowd of lads I met in school, but it has zero reflection of what is coming later in life.
There is no segregation in post-secondary school life so I don't understand why we have such a high proportion of them here. If private schools want to do their thing then that's fine, but I don't understand the reasons behind the State supporting such schools.
As for this being labelled 'woke', well that's just plain stupid and shows how people just use it as a catch-all to describe something they don't agree with.
So in your scenario, parents, who you are insinuating cared deeply about communion, were horrified that they may have to put the effort in themselves at weekends for their little Jane or Johnny to get their communion? ☺️
Also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but kids of mixed sex are educated together all over the world already. The same age too!
I know of one or two schools who asked if communion could be done outside of school time. It was the parents who ate the head off them for daring to suggest such a thing, not the church. Local priests were supportive. But if they schools had gone ahead, they would have lost a LOT of enrolments.
Back on topic. People with wombs mature socially and educationally more quickly than people with penises. To put them together educationally, you'd really need to match younger PWW with slightly older PWP.
like i said in another thread, the right has no issues with cancel culture as long as they're the ones doing the cancelling
Completely agree. Not arguing with you at all. Hoped covid might accelerate the end of communion and confirmation in school but it seems to be creeping back in. Just amazes me the amount of people who row in with it every year.
I did, it was meant as a play on the thread title but don't get me wrong I'd be delighted if there was a way to ban labour, the Soc Dems and the Greens but unfortunately the only way to get rid of them is vote them out.
You can be certain that if communion etc wasn't done in school, and people actually had to put the effort in at weekends, that the number of communions and confirmations you'd see would fall through the floor.
The church knows this, and it's why they will kick and scream when it becomes obvious to them that they're going to lose their grip on kids in Ireland.
About bloody time. Next step is to put in place a secular state education. No religion, and no segregation.
I thought I read that what Labour want would mean that single sex schools will get no state support? Not banned as such.
The Bill proposes giving primary schools a 10-year period to end single-sex admissions and secondary schools a 15-year period.
After this period has elapsed, he said the State should cease providing public funding to schools which continue to discriminate on the basis of gender.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there could be enough who would pay the giant fees for surviving sex segregated and entirely un state supported private schools where the Leaving cert classes all get top points. In particular for their daughters (seems to be more popular & socially acceptable). Would be interesting to see it tested out.
Would expect if this ever comes in, you'll end up with mostly co-ed schools, with a small number of surviving super elite private girls schools where everyone gets close to maximum points in the leaving cert as a matter of course! Well the rich are different anyway.
We do a bit though with the volumes of communions and confirmations that still take place despite the number of catholic marriages declining every year. The numbers don't make any sense, and that's due to parents rowing in with the schools instead of challenging them.
What issues are you conservative on if you are liberal on social issues?
We don't really encourage segregation or church run schools. There just hasn't been the momentum change it. Yet.
If there was a referendum tomorrow on ditching the church in schools and transitioning state schools to mixed-sex it would pass no problem.
Are these the same conservatives that made life a misery for gay people for decades, leading them to live a lie and kill themselves, despite **** all evidence that gay people were some sort of deviants?
Nope. They're not. You're looking at this solely from a political standpoint.. ie. people who choose conservative parties who hold to traditional viewpoints. However, people can be conservative without aligning themselves with such a narrow viewpoint.
I'm quite conservative on a lot of issues... however, I'm also bisexual, was in favour of gay rights, etc. Just because people are conservative in their views, doesn't mean that they can't appreciate the need for social change. Most people lean different ways on issues, rather than focusing entirely on one perspective the whole way... especially in the last few decades as the social conditioning of the State and Church has declined, and people are able to be more informed (if they want to be) on issues than before.
I won't bother addressing the rest of your post because its the same attitude of lumping those with conservative attitudes into one group.
What is the story with reluctance to change in this country. Its 2022, not 1922. If education was invented tomorrow there is not a chance that schools would be segregated by gender, nor would religion be involved.
This country can be quite confusing at times. Vote liberally in huge numbers to repeal the 8th and welcome same sex marriage, then encourage discrimination (Catholic church involvement at school) and segregation (same gender schools) at the same time.
I've put two posts outlining the benefits of such schools before your own post... you could read them.
As for passive aggressive... lol. My.. aren't you sensitive.
I only ever went to mixed schools and got to say I find the idea of same sex schools really fcuking weird, and some of the reasons put forward as to why they are good are a little bit creepy.
I'm looking at you, "boys will be leering instead of learning" people.
I wasn't aware of that, I only remember his "barbarism" comment.
If he is talking about male privilege then he must think that single sex schools give some advantage to boys or that mixed sex schools act as a leveller - perhaps because the teaching methods don't suit boys as klaz mentioned?
If it is as negatively motivated as that then that's very bad. Men/boys already commit suicide in droves, and women are boosted in the corporate world and public sector through all kinds of mandatory policies.
How much hobbling of men will be exacted by this awful political society? It seems never-ending to me.
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