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Would you support Ireland ending the common travel area with Britain?

[Deleted User]

I personally hate the idea of British people being allowed to live and work in Ireland following Brexit but also after the recent amnesties that were given to British soldiers who committed murders during the troubles. I think its wrong we have this kind of relationship with them considering they think so little about these peoples rights.

I spent some time living in Scotland and all I can say is that there is no real solidarity between Ireland and Scotland - Scotland seems pretty comfortable being part of the Union. It has also been suggested by political leaders here that separatism comes with its ''dangers'' and Ireland is often cited as an example. I was never one to question Ireland's fight for liberation- I always regarded it as a legitimate one. The Scottish on the other hand - do and I think Irish people should be concerned about that.

Irish people are definitely regarded as foreigners here and the political relationship and mentality between the two countries are worlds apart and are at times - frosty. The impression I get here is that the UK can do no wrong and they never question their role abroad or what they have done in the past. If they really feel like this, then I suggest the relationship with them should be ended.

Does anyone else feel the same?

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[Deleted User]

@Brussels Sprout Thanks for your reply. I enjoyed reading your observations.

I was working in a professional environment in a regional town so the people I would have been interacting with were educated middle-class types. Obviously that's only one strata of society but I would have worked in similar companies in Ireland so I could make a direct comparison with similar people here. I found that the English tended to have great manners but that came at the expense of a kind of aloofness. I guess it's what people call "reserve". It's kind of like they're holding back their real feelings and therefore have a much narrower emotional range. Personally I found that difficult to warm to. I found myself hanging out with a guy from Zimbabwe as I felt like I had more in common with him than our English colleagues.

While the aloofness might be a national characteristic, it might also be a function of the larger population. England and Wales together had a population of only 15 million in 1841 vs. 8 million in Ireland; perhaps the aloofness was always there, but maybe it developed more recently. If you read any English novels or short stories written before 1890, you can find evidence of a more chatty type of Englishman in bygone times. Personally I am a bit more aloof than the average Irish person, so that wouldn't bother me at all. Also, with a population an order of magnitude higher than Ireland's today and an enormous footprint on the world stage in terms of political and philosophical thought, literature and contribution to science, you do understandably get big country syndrome, which also contributes to ignorance of smaller neighbors. (Interestingly, Zimbabwe's population is only around 14.5 million; so, like Ireland, it's not a very big country either.)

I started to notice as well that the white English people look slightly different to white Irish people here. For example there are a lot more blonde people there and also you see a lot more people with sallow skin (kind of like Gary Lineker). I believe that, although there has been plenty of cross-breeding over the centuries, we have our roots in different tribes of people and this is still evident in the genetics even today.

Yes, they do have more of a continental, Teutonic look about them in aggregate. This is borne out in genetic studies where something like 35% of Englishmen have Germanic heritage, which is largely missing from the other nations on these islands. Still, in a decade where I am asked to believe, for example, that a Pakistani man and his covered wife are as Irish as I am because they happen to have an Irish passport, I don't find anything discomfiting about a higher proportion of blonde people on the neighboring island.

I am one of those Irish who has a more continental look. Before the days of smart phones, I did a lot of solo travel. In places as diverse as Denmark, Portugal, Bulgaria, Italy and Slovakia, local people would approach me and ask me for directions in the native language. I live in the Gulf now and some people start speaking Arabic to me, thinking I'm from some northern Arab country. A DNA test I did a few years ago on FTDNA says my genetics are 72% Irish, 21% British, and 6% Scandinavian. There are an odd few Norman surnames in my lineage but that's about it. The vast majority are Gaelic surnames.

I lived in a garrison town with an army base and a recruitment office for the British Army on the main street. Coming from a place where the military is practically a non-entity to a place where it's very overt was a little jarring. The town itself was quite grim. Even though it was was surrounded by the countryside the houses were tiny. I found it impossible to find a house-share with a garden because most houses didn't have any. I guess that's a byproduct of the higher population density there.

See, I love movies and stories about the British armed forces -- favorites of mine include Master and Commander, Sharpe, and I love reading about WW1 and WW2. One of my favorite films is Stanley Kubrick's Barry Lyndon (filmed in Ireland about an Irishman, based during the mid 1700s, lots of redcoats, Prussians, and highwaymen; it's brilliant). I used to collect model aircraft as a kid - Hurricanes, Spitfires, Lancasters, Mosquitos (but also Me 109s, Me 110s, etc.). That said, I take the Peter Hitchens view that Britain should keep out of other people's countries and I would be very against Ireland joining NATO and I strongly advocate nuclear disarmament. I do think that Ireland should have a stronger military, though.

There seemed to be lot more income inequality over there. Like I remember seeing an advert for a cleaning job paying £6 an hour (this was in 2010). They don't pay the high rate of tax until much higher in the UK so you don't get that same societal wealth transfer that you get here. People can argue about whether that is fair or not but one thing it does is reduce dire poverty. I lived in a few houses with cheap rent and there seemed to be dire poverty in those areas - similar to that TV show Benefits street. Now obviously we have poor areas here too but I went to school in one of them and this was on a different level. As an aside I checked the area after the Brexit vote and it voted for Brexit with over 60% of the vote.

Again, a fair observation. It's a temperamental question for me. I think taxes in Ireland are far too high and that social welfare is too generous. That said, it's in no-one's interest to have more people living in poverty than is unavoidable. Historically, Britain never suffered from a Marxist revolution or a Red menace unlike a lot of peer continental countries, so on the whole I would say they haven't handled things too badly.

As I said, I don't favor political integration with the UK or any of its parts. It wouldn't suit Ireland these days. The interests and metrics have diverged to much. But culturally, I feel a great affinity with Britain.

Lemming

@peter kern wrote:

well but here is the thing, once there is a unified ireland , i would assume that unionists will still be allowed to travel freely to uk and live there as a sweetener but for the rest of the people it cannot really be that ireland should have more rights than other europeans. of course irish and uk people that have lived in the other country will still be allowed to do so aftewards, just like british people can still live in the country they had eu residency before brexit. But after unification it will be hard to sell to europeans why the irish should have more freedoms than the rest of europe.

with the current situation i think most people in europe are rather supportive of ireland, but i guess after an unification irealnd should not rely on this support longer than it needs to be.

I'm sorry, where does unification come into the argument to revoke the CTA given the thread title? Doubly so given the OP who mentions nothing of unification, simply wanting to spite "De Brits"; the same sort of passion that gave us Brexit. All the feels, and reality need not apply.

Matters unification aside, you are making some whopper assumptions regards what comes after revocation of the CTA. The UK has already given us an instruction manual in how they will handle revocation of non-British people's rights to live in Britain. Appallingly and with great incompetence, with a twist of sadism on top. The Home Office are not issuing physical proof of acceptance regards the EU "settlement" scheme, and thus ensuring that all those people affected will fight a constant uphill battle every time they seek NHS attention, apply for a job, accommodation, banking, etc. due to the hostile environment policy, and will forever more also have the threat of further government cock-ups a-la the Windrush scandal seeing further distress and risk of deportation.

Given that bleak state of affairs, what makes you think that a bunch of Unionist Irishmen will fare any better? The little Englander sorts and the Tories don't see unionists as British - save when it suits to pander to media outrage or look for extra voting support in Parliament - but as Irish noting only, perhaps if their geography or current affairs knowledge is up to snuff, that they are from the "Northern bit" of Ireland. They would drop N.Ireland like a hot stone yesterday if they could, so unionists would most likely be told "move/apply before the deadline", followed by a dizzying display of incompetence regards processing of applications and forever-enduring stress for those throwing themselves at the tender mercies of the Home Office.

As I said before, we lose far more from revoking the CTA than we do from joining Schengen. The arguments for Schengen that I have heard most frequently are warm, fuzzy, feelings. Just like Brexit was warm, fuzzy feelings. Ireland is already a member of the EU, the only benefit that Schengen gives us is not having to wave a passport; we can do everything else. So what would we actually gain besides "showing solidarity" that we already show every day by being an enthusiastic EU member state? Well, we gain a large influx of returning Irish citizens en-masse, applying further upwards pressure on a housing market already dying in the gutter, further pressure across school places, the HSE from GP, dental, and opticians services to retirement home support for those older Irish returnees who have lived for decades in the UK, and further pressure on government pensions.

Strumms

Common travel area should remain…

both for economic and social reasons…

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058216788/would-you-support-ireland-ending-the-common-travel-area-with-britain

You benefitted from tbe common travel area, you said you lived in Scotland for a while.

Thus by your own admission, the common travel area was useful and helpful, so no it shouldn't be removed.

garbanzo

Interesting discussion and I’m firmly in the “heart says Schengen but the head says retain the CTA” sine of the argument.

Not wishing to take this off topic but can anyone explain what is actually in the CTA for the British. Why did they agree to it in the first place? I’ve never really had a satisfactory answer to it.

For the record I benefitted from the CTA in the late 80s / early ‘90s working in London when there was precious little here. Been over and back many, many times but in recent years England has become a very strange sort of place.

peter kern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495167#Comment_118495167

with the current situation i think most people in europe are rather supportive of ireland, but i guess after an unification irealnd should not rely on this support longer than it needs to be.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058216788/would-you-support-ireland-ending-the-common-travel-area-with-britain

No, with the Troubles over we should be making closer ties to Britain. Especially with the British left, Corbyn, Livingstone, Skinner, Galloway etc... people like that spoke out against the anti-Irish hysteria in England of the 70's & 80's as did Tony Benn (RIP).

Lemming

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492849#Comment_118492849

Bear in mint that the CTA is not just a "travel" agreement (since it is intrincally linked from a UK perspective to the domestic "Ireland act" of 1949). Its [CTA] revocation would have profound implications for any Irish person living in either N.Ireland or Britain beyond simply being able to travel between jurisdictions since its revocation would result in said act being reviewed/repealed, and there are already a few Tory headbangers who want it repealed. We are - legally - not viewed as foreigners as soon as we rock up on British soil. That means we can vote in local & national elections and referenda, we can seek medical help, accommodation, etc. etc. without having to engage with the perverse, deeply incompetent and Machiavellian entity that is the Home Office and its "Hostile environment" policy, all whilst having to pay them large sums of money for the "privilege" of being treated as less than sh1t.

In revoking the CTA, every Irish person living in Britain or N.Ireland has their rights removed. That statement is ended with a full-stop because that is how total, and all-encompassing the ramifications will be. We are not just talking about travel.

We lose far more from revocation of the CTA than we gain from joining Schengen.

Brussels Sprout

Beyond that then there all the little things that make it obvious that you're in a foreign country:

Different coloured post-boxes, signs and road-markings (those squiggly lines for example)
Going into a pub and not recognising the majority of the beers and ales
Free healthcare (this was a welcome surprise when I had a GP visit)
Being able to easily get around by train (also a good thing)
Less fields in between stations on the train since it's far more developed

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118493937#Comment_118493937

I have never lived continuously in the UK, no. That said, I have spent several weeks at a time in various smaller English cities through the years and worked with lots of English, Scottish and Welsh folk over the past 20 years both inside Ireland and abroad.

I don't believe we're 'the same'. I would personally much prefer the English to the Scots from an affability perspective, if we're speaking in generalizations. That said, I've also noticed a difference between regions within Ireland too -- Donegal folk are a fair bit different from Tipperary folk. Your average person from north Cork is different to Irish-identifying people in Co. Down. And don't get me started on Dublin, which doesn't feel anything like the Ireland I grew up in. I might be wrong but the fact that so many Irish people live in the UK, move to the UK, and find joy and entertainment and interest in so much of what goes on in the UK, suggests to me that the ties that bind us are pretty strong.

I am aware that many people in Britain don't know much or anything about Ireland, but I put that down to (a) it being a totally separate and much bigger country now (the population of Ireland and England were much closer in size at one time) and (b) an awful lot of people don't take much of an interest in anything anyway. It's the same here. I bet if you selected a random group of 50 Irish people, fewer than half could name more than three or four English counties. But the other half could probably name a heap.

On the whole, I think the shared history, language, landscape, and climate are very compelling.

I wouldn't for one moment favor Ireland joining the UK today though. That would be crazy.

Out of curiosity, what do you think are the biggest differences?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492756#Comment_118492756

Out of curiosity have you lived in a British country? I lived in England for a time and I was quite surprised at the difference. Obviously there are a lof of things that we share (e.g. climate, language, landscape) but there are a lot differences too. Growing up in Ireland we receive all of their media so it feels like we're in tune with them culturally but when I was over there I just really noticed that they really are a different people. Also I was shocked at the ignorance I encountered about Ireland from them. I had previously lived in New Zealand and there didn't seem to be much of a difference in the average knowledge about Ireland between the people of those two countries despite one being next door and the other being on the other side of the world.

Cookie_Monster

I would be in favour of removing the CTA with the UK in favour of joining schenegn and be further integrated with our fellow EU members rather than the pariah state the UK is becoming. There is little advantage to maintaining it at the expense of better relations elsewhere.

Unfortunitly the mess up north means it probably won't ever happen and we'll be stuck with the current arrangement.

sydthebeat

The OP is a silly idea

fritzelly

I personally hate the idea of British people being allowed to live and work in Ireland following Brexit

Last I checked there was considerably more Irish living and working in the UK than vice versa - so where you gonna home all these Irish that have to be deported back to Ireland, where are all the jobs gonna come from or will it just be more people on the dole

The Irish/UK thing is more than just the CTA - there is lots of familiar bonds between the countries beyond a piece of paper, more so than there is with the rest of Europe

OP has no idea what they are talking about

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156878#Comment_118156878

Personally I very much identify as Irish and European, but my sense of being European is not associated with the EU, more with European civilization. There was a time when I was an ardent EU federalist but my feelings toward the EU have cooled very significantly over the years, though I do not favor leaving it and I do not hope for its dissolution. I would align more so with the Polish-Hungarian view of things and dislike the way in which the western EU states are going, culturally and socially.

I also have a great affinity with Britain based on our shared history. I don't feel that Britain is a foreign country. In another universe I could quite easily see myself as happily Irish and British in a UK that worked a bit better for all the four nations and never broke up. If there was an option today for Irish people to claim UK citizenship as a birthright, I'd take it for cultural reasons. (I'm from a Gaelic, Catholic, southern family by the way).

Mayfielder

Nope.

If it ain't broke why fix it ?

323

Absolutely Not.

Been lots of ups and downs, not argument there. But we still have a lot more in common with them than any any other European country.

ATR72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144156#Comment_118144156

I've never met anyone in Ireland who identifies as anything other than Irish. The CTA will still be in place even if there was a united Ireland. Unionists won't suddenly dissapear and there are hundreds of thousands of Irish people living and working in the UK. The number has remained the same as pre-Brexit years.

endacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142052#Comment_118142052

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130108#Comment_118130108

Just for the sake of balance so....

I wholeheartedly endorse the ridiculous and badly thought out proposition outlined by the OP. I further propose the blocking of BBC, ITV and Channel 4. Because they’re British, like. Also, Walkers crisps. They can fcuk off too.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142450#Comment_118142450

So you have been asleep since 2016, or maybe 1998. Fair enough so, I didn't realise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142724#Comment_118142724

He's not. He just hasn't realised.

Breezer

In an ideal world, and for ideological reasons, it would be nice to be able to join Schengen instead. I don’t feel in any way British, whereas I do feel European, and would support the closer integration being part of Schengen would bring.

In reality, no. It would create a hard border on the island of Ireland. It would make things a lot more difficult for those Irish people who have chosen to live and work in the UK. And, since we live on an island, being part of Schengen wouldn’t really bring any major tangible benefits. Shorter airport queues, sometimes. That’s hardly worth sacrificing all the good the CTA brings, including blasting the GFA out of the water.

The only way it would work would be in a United Ireland, and even then it would take generations, if it ever worked at all. One would have to assume that people in NI would retain the right to British citizenship post unification, and where would that leave them if the CTA were scrapped?

What I would like, would be for Ireland and the UK to both join Schengen, but whatever slim chance there was of that in years gone by, it’s simply not going to happen now.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142450#Comment_118142450

So you're advocating for a hard border on the island of Ireland then? That is the actual consequence of removing the CTA.

If you say that we do not need it but also that we shouldn't have a hard border then you're no better than the Brexiteers who only destroy things without any thought to the consequences.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142358#Comment_118142358

It's time some Irish people ditched the colonial mindset and stopped tugging the forelock.

And, no, we don't need it. It's a hangover the country never even asked for.

We have a peculiar lack of self confidence compared to other small countries.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142187#Comment_118142187

It's hard to say. From a purely technical point of view, it's fair enough to ask why use the CTA as opposed to any other mechanism that would achieve the same ends. But these questions are never purely technical, as both the peace process and Brexit have shown.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139772#Comment_118139772

What is this "we don't need it" nonsense of which you speak?

and that other thing? Enhance? Borders? With our nearest neighbour?

Seriously? Have you not been following the news?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139382#Comment_118139382

So what? It does exist, and therefore any proposal that puts a hard border on this island is a bad one. The two countries have shared responsibilities and shared interests, and the nature of those shared responsibilities and interests is what makes the CTA both useful and necessary.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142052#Comment_118142052

Unless that was the intention. Or alternatively the OP did not understand the CTA and what it means.

Brussels Sprout

Don't think I've ever seen a thread where there has been unanimous disagreement with the OP. That just goes to show how terrible and poorly thought out an idea it was.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141998#Comment_118141998

Forget Schengen. The CTA is needed so that Irish citizens have the same rights in the UK as British citizens and vice versa. Without that the GFA simply falls apart.

Sam Russell

There is more to the CTA that travel and passports.

Under UK law, Irish Citizens are not Aliens, and are treated the same as UK Citizens in most things.

If the CTA ended, it would be unravelled bit by bit and not as a sudden overall change. Various 'privileges' would be withdrawn as and when it appeared to be worth withdrawing.

We could find, if there was a united Ireland, that joining Schengen might be important, and UK passport holders might have a problem which might require an accommodation - or not.

Otherwise, we have no likely need to end the CTA.