Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Land Commission/Ownership over time

«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Property rights


    The Constitution declares that the State will vindicate the property rights of every citizen. This means that you have a right to own, transfer and inherit property. You also have the right to bequeath property upon your death. The State guarantees to pass no law to abolish these rights.


    Article 43 acknowledges that these rights ought to be regulated by the principles of social justice. This means that the State may pass laws limiting your right to private property in the interests of the common good. The most common form of limitation is taxation on ownership, transfer and inheritance.


    Other examples of restrictions or limitations on your right to own property include town and regional planning, protection of national monuments, compulsory acquisition of land.


    If the State passes a law that otherwise restricts your property rights, it may be required to compensate you for this restriction.

    ^^^Those are our property rights in this Republic. Basically you've a right to property but if the government public good want it more..we'll take it.

    Are those not enshrined? Is that not what your disagreement is with the direction land discussion is heading in this country?

    Apologies for broadening your knowledge of Princess Anne. 🙂

    I shall need a request of which knowledge you wish to possess for future engagements.🤓



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's the interpretation of "appropriate" that's the real discussion. Our private property rights, which I was already depressingly familiar with, aren't worth a toss, for the very reasons you outlined.

    In another republic, across the Atlantic, they do appear to have more appropriate private property rights, in that their version of designations "America the Beautiful" (formerly 30 x 30) can't be foisted upon a landowner without their consent.

    Apology accepted and you may forward future discussion documents to a member of my team 👍️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    If you go back a few generations id say the ancestors of a fair amount of the ppl that post on here would have gained ownership of their land from the land commission. Before that a lot of farmers had a landlord and no real security



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Different times. Those were times of war with the threat of people being shot. The threat of loss of life does tend to influence a government.

    I'm not advocating violence merely stating the situations.

    We're not in a generation of violence anymore and a bit away from the world wars and civil and independence wars.

    Do you think if a western Monarchy country or province became a Republic nowadays or joined to an existing Republic, land ownership would change?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    With the exception one family in our locality, all the holdings that were created by the land commission have sold out.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Was the commission in the 20’s, did something else happen in the 70’s? Where fans were sold here and the families moved to Meath/Westmeath



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    My father was trying to buy land here in the nineteen fifties and there was a protest march against it up by the house.

    A good few were resettled here in westmeath from the west of Ireland then too, I think they got farms of about 40 acres.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Allot of families were able to extend holdings here because of of it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    Its an interesting topic. It would be very interesting to see what would happen to the massive landed estates if scotland got independence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    Started in 1923 and ended in 1960's as far as i know.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    When mayo were in the all ireland last year there was heaps of mayo flags up around here lol. They have all stayed here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Nothing would happen them.

    You and I know what rules now is money. And money dictates policy.

    You can see all these environmental groups set up in Ireland. They're ngo's but set themselves up with government money and private sponsorship. It's the private sponsorship that dictates what they lobby for.

    It's full blown open in the UK and just creeping in here. What they call for is more wilderness which the big estates and landlords can provide. So they'll go along with that, even support them as it's a means to an end. Of course the big multinationals are delighted as it allows them to buy estates and carbon offset themselves and be holier than thou while they themselves probably fund the ngo's and if Common Agricultural Policy money now comes to fund the wilderness estates so much the better. Job done.

    All win except who the Common Agricultural Policy was originally set up for.

    It's not a great future imo. But is to others with full pockets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭green daries




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    And it's the original small holder tenant farmers that have expanded buying up the holdings.

    Those land commission holdings were sold by the third generation - who were well educated - and are now doing exceptionally well. A system that was of its time and worked out very well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,219 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Still in existence.

    Just called "Lands" now, and based in the Dept Ag. buildings in Cavan Town.

    Still control quite a large area of land that is still in State ownership, but the bulk of its work is now centered on land disputes, rights of way, legal cases going back decades etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    I stand corrected but did the Land Commission also allocate land to "foreigners" (mostly displaced Belgium/Dutch farmers) after the Second World War?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    The home place is the same land, down to the acre of what we had in the 1850s in the Griffith valuations.

    Now, in 1850, we were renting off some local landlord.

    When would it have come into our possession properly?

    This was what seemed to happen down our way - in our town land I would say maybe half of the same families still have the same farms…

    But I know up around the missus place, people seemed to get fields all over the place, I think from the land commission. Not sure how it was all worked out…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭straight


    De valera brought in legislation which meant that the farmers at the time went to bed as tenants and woke up in morning as landowners. The Brits had to borrow huge amounts of money to pay back the landlords for their losses. This money was borrowed over such a long timeframe it will never really be paid back in reality. That's how government debt and bonds work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭Jim Simmental


    Interesting discussion on land ownership, Did the English give a lot of land to the soldiers after the world war ?


    can’t remember but I came across a map somewhere that the higher your ranking in the army you were allocated land in Kilkenny/Carlow/Meath etc for the highest ranking officers and the lower ranking officers were allocated land in Cavan/Monaghan/Donegal etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭straight


    Ya, depending on how many innocent people they murdered they got rewarded with large estates. People on the land before them had to get out of the way. To hell or to Connaught. People think they have it hard now.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    I always wondered about this. What year did DeVelera make this change? The farm where my grandfather was born is across the road from us. In Griffiths Valuation circa (1847 to 1864), the farm is exactly the same as it is today. Same fields, ditches not moved an inch. My great great grandfather or gggg father was listed as a tenant.

    I always wondered when he became the legal owner.

    'If I ventured in the slipstream, Between the viaducts of your dream'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭green daries


    Yes some smaller estates around here we're given as gifts for service rendered in the army



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Most land was bought out under the land acts by tenants from 1860s to early 1900s



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    Our local area had a lot of landed estates pre 1923. These were all divided up if the landlords were absentee and given to locals or to familys resettled in the area. My great grandfather worked on the only estate in the area who continued to farm as far as i know. Theres an interesting podcast on that estate i listened to lately. They speak of how the estate was given back to the family by the ira and that the ira leader of the time farmed the neighbouring farm.


    i found census info for great grandfather lately as being employed their.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,963 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    FounD the 1901 and 1911 census form for my Great grand parents. It took we a while to suss them even though I had a lot of the info.

    It was as filled out in the King's English in 1901 as clear as day. In 1911 he filled it completely in Irish. Names, address, all the children, whether they could read and write all in Irish.

    It brought into focus how the country was radicalised in the early 1900's and why 1916 happened.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    I thought it was an agent filled out the census rather than the people themselves?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Have an interest in this topic as my great grandfather was land agent for almost 30 years ,from mid 1870's after he got married until he retired just before WW1 .My grand uncle then got the job and was at it until the estate he worked for was all settled up in the 1930's .He died in 1936 and he was still at that line of work as far as I know when he died .

    Landlord had land owned in Kildare ,Carlow ,Laois ,Offaly ,Wicklow ,Mayo and lot more in England . .Grand uncle would have travelled to the UK a good bit on business over the years .

    Have one estate rent book here from I think about 1885 or so .Must have a look for it .Remember reading through it (covered maybe 5 years or so )and almost every tenant was from 6 months to 3 years behind on their moities (rent due twice a year ) .Just one eviction mentioned and that was someone who had got a farm a few years previous and had never paid any rent at all .

    Lots of 5 pounds allowed off for Pat x for re slating a barn or 3 pounds off for John Y for putting in new windows in his dwelling .Also loans to people ranging from a few pounds up to 500 pounds with payment dates etc .

    Not sure which Land Act the farm here was purchased under but must look it up at some stage .Know we were paying annuities longer than neighbours who has a different landlord .Mine finished up when the Gov. decided to end the practice sometime in the late 1980's/early 1990's from memory .Think it was somewhere about 10 pounds a year at the time .They wrote off all the ones under a certain amount I think .Not sure how long ours were due to run .

    Anyone remember the "final demand" slips that came in the post .Think they were red coloured .Always thought it amusing that the one and only notice you got was a final demand .

    As regards Griffiths Valuation we are still farming the land we had at that time (c.1850 ).On the Tithe Applotment we are farming part of it ,an outfarm where my great great grandfather lived at the time .

    Almost every farm hereabouts is similar to Griffiths time .Perhaps 30% would have changed hands whilst others the name would have changed due to marriage or inheritance but same general family .

    Land Commission was very much a curates egg type of thing .If you were looking for land then agitation etc was fine and dandy whilst if you had a farm where inheritance was unsure etc etc then it was a communist menace .

    Know my 4 grandparents would have had very divergent views on it .One grandfathers side got a few divides .His wife's family bought land before WW1 and when her father died young they had a struggle to keep it .Other grandfathers family my grand aunt farm was taken and divided on the death of her husband in 1950's.Think she got Land Bonds or somesuch worthless stuff for it .There would have been c.70 acres in it and all those who got a divide sold it within 20 years .Was a very very sore subject with my grandfather and his brothers .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Same as nowadays ,you filled it out yourself .Literacy rates at the time were much lower so more people would have gotten the census taker to fill it out for them .Same as if you look at Birth Marriage Death Register for late 19th/early 20th century .Perhaps 30% plus are signed with an X and witnessed underneath .


    As regards Bass 1901/1911 census see the exact same here with one grandfather .1901 census filled in as normal ,1911 census has just names written in Old Irish script with nothing else ,no occupations ,ages etc filled in .They would have been very involved in Celtic revival ,Irish language etc and actually had Padraig Pearse down to open local hall c.1910 or so .



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,613 ✭✭✭kk.man


    The land commission was full of nepotism in places. It depended upon whom you knew or what political party were in power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭straight


    Would your great grandfather be known as the gombeen man back then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Never heard that expression before so no idea to be honest .



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Was the gombeen man not the shopkeeper?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    More of a modern day loan shark is my understanding of it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,495 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Not your ornery onager



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭straight


    They were collecting the money for the landlord so was it. The landlord was the lender like?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    The definition of a gombeen man was someone who loaned money at high rates.


    ** this isnt me calling the person whos father was a land agent this name, its me explaining my understanding of the term. No offence meant!**



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭straight


    Same here. I never heard of them either but David mc Williams often mentions the gombeen man. He might not be too accurate in his description.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭green daries


    Yes David is sketchy on the details when it comes to agriculture which IMO is a pity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    Land annuities and the 1930s economic war. I heard of farmers taking their animals to the marts and leaving them there unsold. Farmers continued to pay, renamed as rates.

    Good description here.

    https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/when-dev-defaulted-the-land-annuities-dispute-1926-38/



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    The Rent Book you have there is a very precious piece of Irish history.

    Your ancestor sounds like a very fair rent collector. Twice a year the rent was collected on Gale days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    That's some can of worms to be opened up. Next one will be how was disadvantaged land designated.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 308 ✭✭Bog Man 1


    Our Farm was originally bought by a Catholic Lawer that was educated in France because of the lack of educational facilities for Catholics as a legacy of the Penal laws . He became rich dividing up indebt estates for the british government under various land acts . He may have used insider information to know the farm was for sale. . The previous family interests had moved to other things and the farm was inherited by a family member that was exploring in Africa and he married an African woman and was killed fighting for her tribe . The Lawer rocks up at the auction and bought the farm but had to sell some to tenants and probably some land to reduce his debt . He actually borrowed some of the money in the Isle Of Wight .The big estates nearby had bid up the land and he probably paid too much for it . There was always acrimony between him and the members of the Grand Jury with them levying rates on the Townland for Malicious damages when sheds were burnt .The Fact that the Townland was Catholic did not go unnoticed and he banned the hunt until my Grandfather lifted the Ban in 1930 .The Lawer was actually married to a Protestant and she converted to Catholicism on the death of her husband and was granted the right to have a private Galvanised chapel attached to the house . His niece was my great grand Aunt and she was the last woman standing and left it to her nephew my grand father .

    Our Farm was willed to my Canadian Grandfather in 1930 and my father started farming it in 1947 . My grandfather only came over here for a year and a half and returned to Canada as did the rest of the family . A distant cousin worked in the Land Commission and everytime the file came to the top of the pile he removed it and placed it at the bottom thus stopping it getting in to the hands of the Land Commission . The Land comission files were sealed because of the acrimony it would create between families BUT If you look up the Dail records you can find out a certain amount about which of your neighbours were lobbying to have farms divided up .

    I was told land that never went through the land Comission or previous bodies that the owners had more rights over minerals thabn divided land .

    The Encumbered estate acts and the Wyndham acts were some of the acts that enabled land division . Some of these acts were to enable the Landlords to reduce debt . Some of the Landlords used the money wisely and invested in shares in thriving British companies and became wealthy once again .



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    Kerry barony of Clanmaurice is mentioned there in that article.... which the area I live in.... basically a collection of villages in the hurling area of Kerry.. Causeway/Ballyduff/ballyheigue... local credit union is called clanmaurice credit union.. this time last year I was looking thru griffiths valuations and the ordnance survey site.. the name of which escapes me.. our land was owned by a Richard Oliver... he owned a lot of the land in our area.. it’s all very interesting to be fair.... I also remember from my few years in Co. Meath they f..king went mad at the very mention of the Land Commission.... ‘people coming from the west with their knitting needles taking our land’.... I always said if they were inclined to work it it wouldn’t have been taken off them... don’t know if that was true or not



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭alps


    Which never happened in GB, so still consists of tenanted estates to a large extent. (Although you do come across pockets of owned 100/200 acre farms...if a similar project happened regionally)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,210 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Not land commission related but there is an old fella not to far from me who owns at least two big farms of land, plus a lot of other random valuable fields around the place. His father acquired them.

    The father never worked the land himself though. He was a civil servant who was apparently responsible for collecting rates from farmers in the area ......... and somehow came to own a lot of land he was collecting rates on............. their "home place" is a fine big farm that was owned by an elderly bachelor farmer who was fond of the drink. That farm was transferred over to the rates collecting father piece by piece over a couple of decades. My grandfather always maintained that the rates collector basically took it from him by paying a few very small debts for the bachelor. I didn't think that that was plausible but then I looked into it one time and I think there was a mechanism whereby the rates collector would forward the rates to the government and he would then have power to seize property to satisfy the debt to him, and charge interest and costs etc. It wasn't quite clear though. But there could have been an element of truth in what my grandfather used to say.

    It could of course be the case that a civil service wage would allow you to accrue 400-500 acres of very good land back in the day. But make of that what you will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Apparently it was common if land was being neglected neighbours could petition to get land taken off man like above and divided. Know of someone near me whose relatives got wind of something and transferred land into a different name just in time to avoid this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,613 ✭✭✭kk.man


    It's true alright...my father knew of a fella who actually sat on 'the commission' and helped his friends (not small holders) and himself (well to do farmer) to valuable land.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    i



  • Advertisement
Advertisement