This question goes out those who took the 2 jabs? Will you you take it to get back to normality? Or are you sick of the government moving the goalposts constantly?
I'd advise getting it sooner if you can't afford to be feeling under par recovering from the immunization in January.
Yeah I probably will but think I'll get it in one of the local pharmacies this time round.
Half of the hospital admissions from unvaccinated when something like 97% of Ireland has been vaccinated says the unvaccinated are wildly overrepresented in hospital and ICU.
I agree. Vaccines have massively reduced serious illness and death. My point is that even if 100% of Irish people were vaccinated we'd still have around half the numbers in hospitals that we have today. Mostly the very old or already very unwell. We'd still be hearing about delays. Pre covid it was flu, penumonia, winter vomiting bugs being blamed for trolley traffic jams in our hospitals. Christmas 2019 had the system under strain before covid came anywhere near us.
I’ll wait and see. It could be different in January and also I made some enquiries with pharmacies.
@Wibbs wrote
It's "if" and "may". There was no talk of any "stated 6/9 month cycle of the first vaccine". This wasn't "all stated from day one of the covid 19 vaccine use" as that poster so confidently claimed.
I wasn't replying to that post, nor was I dealing with your broader point. I'm simply pointing out that your claim that
Nobody was talking about 6/9 month cycles of the vaccines when they were first rolled out.
...is misleading, and plays into the theme pushed by the vaccine-weary that this is all some kind of con. The Irish Times article from November 2020 (one month before the rollout started) has the exact headline "Covid-19: Booster doses may be needed for vaccine, Nphet told" and the article contains the following:
Regular boosters may be needed for a vaccine against Covid-19 due to people’s antibody response to the disease declining over time...Evidence from 22 studies suggests IgG antibody levels (the most common antibody in the blood) are sustained for at least two months after infection and for up to six months in some people. ...Hiqa said its findings suggest immunity may not be long-term and if vaccination results in a similar response, “consideration may be given to the need for repeat of ‘booster’ doses”
Short of having a time machine, it's hard to see how HIQA could have been clearer about the strong possibility of boosters, and the IT actually boosted the prominence of the booster part by putting that in their headline.
Now, you can hairsplit about whether the exact phrase was stated 6/9 month cycle or not, and I could respond by hairsplitting that the current "talk" from those advocating boosters is not about "cycles" but of one booster at a time and seeing how it goes (the "this will never end" talk is from those opposed to boosters), but that's not really getting us anywhere.
Anyway, enough words on one minor gripe.
"Flooded" Jaysus you do love the hyperbole. Over the last few months around half of all patients in hospitial with covid were vaccinated and wait and see in a few months a fair percentage will be boosted too. Rinse and repeat. Even if every single person in the country were vaccinated around half of the current numbers would be in hospital with this pox. Would the hospitals magically be open for business as normal then? We've had serious strain on the health service and necessary surgeries being cancelled at times of overload before and long before covid. Unless you could move all the covid patients to one "fever" hospital, we'd still be seeing delays with the fully vaccinated and boosted. A nation of five milllion that's concerned about a thousand odd people in hospitals and ICUs across the country is a nation with a very strained health service. Covid just pointed it out. Again.
In Scandinavia, I believe most of the hospital admissions are blonde. Should they be sent to fever hospitals?
The preceding was a joke. Half of the hospital admissions from unvaccinated when something like 97% of Ireland has been vaccinated says the unvaccinated are wildly overrepresented in hospital and ICU. Also you conveniently left out 'in hospital' versus 'in a hospital ICU'. Some data for you https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/vaccinationstatusreports/Vaccination%20status%20of%20confirmed%20COVID-19%20cases%20in%20Ireland%20Week%2046.pdf
The article from CNN I linked to explains why the problem isn't getting vaccines to poverty stricken countries. It's vaccinations. Poverty stricken countries lack infrastructure and expertise, neither of those is exportable.
Personally I'd think of donating to the WHO who can help. But, sending a pallet of doses to the 3d world is ineffective. Ireland doing so is just me-tooism, can't be seen to not be just at all times.
It's not just about deaths - it's about keeping hospitals open (so that necessary surgeries, like the one described earlier in the thread, aren't delayed) and not just flooded with unvaccinated or unboosted Covid sufferers.
And here's another hype merchant. You do understand that the risks of serious illness and death are monumentally tiny for children, poverty stricken or not? Then again wheeling out the third world kids angle is good for the hyperbole of sympathy and is usually applicable to most diseases, but not covid.
People get yearly flu vaccines so IF there will be a need for a yearly covid vaccine I’m more then happy to take one...got my flu vaccine last week, my booster yesterday... zero drama...if the cost to staying well is a 5 kilometer drive and a small wait, no drama...just get on with it.
im playing my part.
8760 hours in a year, I can and will gladly fûcking spend 4 hours or whatever getting jabbed. 0.045 % of my year.
Apart from the very peculiar comparison this is yet another why isn't everyone like me post. I'm wide awake thanks and open to the differences in people. You should try it!
People are being offered boosters and turning them down when children in poverty stricken country’s could give anything for an initial dose.
Wake up
Again, though how it still needs repeating at this stage; 90% of all deaths from covid 19 in Ireland were over 65. 40% of all deaths were in the over 85s. Of the 10% left, the majority were over 45. And that's without plugging the already very ill from other health problems into the mix.
No statistics yet on Long Covid and serious side-effects of the disease that I've found from Ireland. In the UK, there's been a couple of small studies like https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/09/16/how-common-is-long-covid-that-depends-on-how-you-measure-it/
But, sure, FAAFO. Booster's easy, took me less than 10 minutes at the pharmacist. Didn't even require waiting around.
59 years old (old being the relevant word there) tomorrow. I had the booster jab two weeks ago. No side effects, out from that area of the arm being sore to the touch the next day. No comparison to the day after the second jab. THAT was not pleasant.
Well, we've not done a lot of corona virus vaccines have we? Wasn't the common wisdom a couple years ago that one couldn't be done?
Yes and no. It was more that there was no money in it, so little return for the industry to pursue it. Vaccines in general are or were seen as low return on investment research. Moderna, who were seen as the poster boys for mRNA technology went into vaccines as most of their other areas of treatment looked too risky to continue. Over a decade on from their founding they have only one commercial product, the covid 19 vaccine and chances are high they'd still be looking for a commercial product if a Chinese wet market dweller didn't get sniffly. There was a fair bit of research done into SARS and to a lesser extent MERS, both of which found an immunity in the survivors lasting a few years, but as those viruses faded away naturally, funding dried up.
Closest is the flu, and as you point out, that one requires annual boosters to try and avoid the worse outbreaks. Some years that doesn't even work.
Nope, it's not the closest and that wasn't my point at all. It requires boosters because the virus mutates, not because of waning immunity to existing ones. Very different. And again you keep saying annual boosters regarding covid. Two jabs apparently only give six months, the J&J only three, but somehow if you get a booster tommorrow you're likely golden until next christmas? How does that work then?
So, your recommendation is, take no boosters? That doesn't seem to follow - you agree the virus will continue to mutate (it has seen to be good at that,) at least for Omicron it's mutated into a more contagious but (at this time, based on limited information) less deadly version,
Actually the virus isn't particularly good at mutating. Certainly not like the flu viruses. If it was the original vaccines and boosters would be essentially useless.
and your recommendation is 'sit tight it will all be grand?' Feel free to take the risk but I agree with the Professor quoted in the CNN article: " ...there would be nothing more tragic to me than having someone protected by a two-dose regimen for six to eight months, and then to get seriously ill and die because they didn't get a booster."
If someone is over 60, or in bad health with pre-existing conditions leaving them open to higher risks of serious illness then boosters are a good idea in the short to medium term(I'd add in the obese of any age to that). That demographic is overwhelmingly over represented in serious illness and death stats. Covid 19 is a serious illness in the old and the sick and even then the vast majority still survive it. Now we can all wheel out examples of a 30 year old marathon runner who died from it, but they are an absolutely tiny minority, the very definition of outliers. Hell, men can die from breast cancer, but no health services are suggesting breast scans for blokes. Again, though how it still needs repeating at this stage; 90% of all deaths from covid 19 in Ireland were over 65. 40% of all deaths were in the over 85s. Of the 10% left, the majority were over 45. And that's without plugging the already very ill from other health problems into the mix.
TL;DR? Boost the old and vulnerable. Leave the wider population out of it, unless there's an actual uptick in serious illness and death seen in the under 50's(and I'd bet there won't be. There wasn't when we had no vaccines at all). Rely on immune system memory and track that as a way for us to end up living with this virus.
Name one disease or vaccine where we've even attempted that. Never mind on a worldwide scale with quite leaky vaccines, breakthrough infections and vast reserves of the virus out there. It's simply not currently feasible. This is beginning to sound awfully like the overconfidence of "vaccines will get us out of this" - and they certainly did get us out of a huge number of people dying from this pox, but we're still living with it - only now it's being replaced by a similar overconfidence in boosters. And no the flu vaccines are not an equivalent. The disease is strongly seasonal, (generally)less dangerous, mutates more rapidly and the uptake of vaccines is tiny. And they're a completely different class of virus. Oh and flu vaccine protection can start to wane within weeks.
So, your recommendation is, take no boosters? That doesn't seem to follow - you agree the virus will continue to mutate (it has seen to be good at that,) at least for Omicron it's mutated into a more contagious but (at this time, based on limited information) less deadly version, and your recommendation is 'sit tight it will all be grand?' Feel free to take the risk but I agree with the Professor quoted in the CNN article: " ...there would be nothing more tragic to me than having someone protected by a two-dose regimen for six to eight months, and then to get seriously ill and die because they didn't get a booster."
Of course we can continue to maintain antibodies, via annual boosters.
And you're not responding to the question around the time period regarding waning antibodies. If two jabs give "only" six months, how will three give more? Israel seem to think it's prudent to not assume that and get boosters in stock for a fourth round. You seem awfully confident in this annual timeframe, with no good reason that I can see.
It may be the immune memory protection fades - we don't know yet.
Oh it likely will going on other viral infections. Immune memory can fade over time depending on the virus. Some illicit a very strong memory, measles an obvious one, Chickenpox is similar. Essentially immunity is "lifetime" from vaccine or infection. Tetanus is only around a decade by comparison. However immune memory is more robust and longer lasting than antibody levels. Good luck with finding neutralising antibodies to measles in your blood today, you're going to have to dive deep, yet you're almost certainly immune to it. Good luck with finding flu antibodies in your blood to the previous years mutation in Summer, but you will be immune/protected against that particular strain. This was amply demonstrated with the "Russian" flu of the late 70's Because it was so similar to the "Asian" flu of the late 50's(to the degree that some suspect it was a lab escapee) that it hit those under 30 the hardest and left the over 30's alone because they had survived the earlier one and were immune/protected.
If, as you say, a really nasty variant comes along, the sad thing is that we won't know it's "really nasty" until people are badly infected with it and by then it might be a repeat of Alpha from the UK, deadly and virulent but fortunately outcompeted by vaccines and Delta.
And if a really nasty variant comes along it's just as likely to be one that evades the current vaccines, boosters or no. We've been very lucky on that score so far. TBH I was surprised not to see a strongly evading variant so far. What with waning antibody levels, which allow the virus a few days grace to reproduce before the immune memory kicks in and kicks it out. That's a fair selection pressure to mutate around the vaccines in that time. One hope is a vaccine that sees all of that family of coronaviruses as the enemy. And that may be possible. It was found in one study(that I can't find at the mo) that those who survived SARS and were vaccinated against covid 19 mounted a strong reaction to other coronaviruses even inclduing ones that hadn't made the jump to humans.
I think masks are for the people around you.
FAAFO. Fingers in the ears might help.
The shows over folks. Shut down the thread .
the uptake of the booster may be better than expected, but when they start talking to us about a 4th and 5th dose in 2022, you will see people stop going.
and As for not allowing people to travel / do other social activities without a booster and putting an expiry on digital certs, there will be ways around everything.
they’ll think twice about that next year when the global travel industry is seriously hurt again because people will refuse to travel under the promise that they get an injection.
if you don’t like other people not getting what you’re getting; stay in the house and watch the news 24/7, it seems that’s what some of you only have done for the past 21 months.
the sooner the protests and backlash that happen in Europe trickle to here the better , I got my two but that’s the end of it, enough is enough.
worry about yourself , if your mask is so damn good then you shouldn’t be concerned about if the person sitting at the other side of the cafe is wearing one, should you?
Of course we can continue to maintain antibodies, via annual boosters. It may be the immune memory protection fades - we don't know yet. The best thing about Dr. Osterholm's statements is that there's a lot of 'we don't know' in them; that's what makes a good scientist, one that recognizes the limits of their knowledge.
1) That immunity would wane; the MRNA vaccines should have been 3 dose regimens
If immunity wanes and it does, at least with neutralising antibodies, then how does just three doses prevent that? It's still going to wane after the third. By how much and how quickly is about the only question. If it comes out around 12 months then it's an annual booster, but going on the current evidence it's more likely to be 6 months, just like the other doses, which will make it a biannual booster for the foreseeable. Israel is already considering a fourth jab. Unless someone can point to an existing vaccine for any viral illness that keeps neutralising antibodies consistently high for a year or longer. And what are the potential longterm effects of keeping these neutralising antibodies consistently high?
My personal prediction? We'll end up boosting the elderly and vulnerable to keep their neutralising antibodies high as they're by far the most likely to end up very sick or dying and lose protection more rapidly(much like the seasonal flu vaccines), but unless a really nasty variant comes along will increasingly rely on immune memory protection in the rest of the population who are at significantly less risk from serious illness and death and taking up hospital beds. We simply can't sustain keeping neutralising antibodies high in the wider population for years to come.
Yes, definitely. But, I would like to get a different shot (like AZ/Moderna/JJ) this time. A few studies showed that a mix of vaccine could provide better immunity! I like to try.
An interesting interview by CNN of an epidemiologist who has been pretty much spot on about Covid well in advance of his predictions coming true:
2) Predicted fairly accurately the # of deaths in the US well ahead of models
3) Why sending vaccine doses to 3rd world countries is ineffective
4) Why most modeling is good for about 30 days
And the HIQA report concerns itself with immunity after infection and goes on to state: It is important to remember, however, that these are rare events. Fourteen confirmed cases at the time worldwide and the reinfection occurred with different viral strains. If you dig into the supporting literature one of the studies from Qatar that gives overall numbers involved 133,000 confirmed infections with just 4 confirmed reinfections and of all the studies there was only one death in a woman of 89 who was immunocompromised.
Where it talks about vaccination it states this: Our findings of a reduction in neutralising capacity over time suggests immunity may not be long-term. If vaccination results in a similar response, consideration may be given to the need for repeat or ‘booster’ doses.
It's "if" and "may". There was no talk of any "stated 6/9 month cycle of the first vaccine". This wasn't "all stated from day one of the covid 19 vaccine use" as that poster so confidently claimed. That's a complete bloody nonsense. Indeed, throughout it has been stated far more that vaccination gives a better, more consistent and longlasting immune response than "natural" infection. So no, theres little danger of me needing to prepare corvid on toast.
And none of the above takes away from my point that the unvaccinated are not the root of all evils as their consultant laid out in their "rant". If we didn't have the percentage of vaccinated we have, they'd have a point, but we've one of the higher percentages in Europe. According to this breakdown we're second only to the Danes, with only six odd percent not vaccinated and half of those in hospital and ICU are vaccinated. Today we've what around 500 in hospital with this pox and around 100 in ICU? Does anybody really believe that if those numbers in a perfect world were 250 and 50 that the Irish health service would be grand and back to what passes for normal? If anyone does, I have some magic beans to sell you. It's clear that the vaccines have made an enormous positive difference and the vast majority of the Irish people have taken that on board. This demonisation of the small minority with ridiculous rants and claims that they're the ones wholly at fault for the parlous state of our health service overflow capacity is a handy excuse, but that's what it is, an excuse.
To answer my own question, the date on the article is correct. The HIQA publication from 11 Nov 2020 is here
Not likely to happen for a good while. EU level discussion on that for now.
Does anybody know if they are reissuing updated covid certs to reflect the booster?
Nonsense to your way of thinking. You really have to look at why they got them in the first place, how much risk there is likely to be to their age group and the aforementioned reaction to those 2 doses. Not everyone is in a rush to queue up for boosters and even for the comparable flu jab, only a minority sign up to that annually.
The EU are looking at setting a 9 month expiry of the cert, so not for a very good while yet in most cases.
Is the date on this article (Wed, Nov 11, 2020) wrong?
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