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Child Item

Why are there so few state owned / state run schools in Ireland?

Jeremy Sproket

The majority of schools here at both primary and secondary level are under the Catholic ethos. There are very few truly secular school.

The majority of the aforementioned schools are on Church property and therefore the Church has a huge say in how things are done (even if the teachers themselves are state employees).

The usual stock response from people is "if you have a problem with it then send your kids to an educate together". This is a baloney response as there often isn't an ET school for several kilometers from some people's homes.

We're a Christian family and we go to Church service most Sundays (my dad is Lutheran and my mam is CoI).

Why can't the state get their finger out and build secular schools or at least pay off the Catholic Church to take hold of the schools and get rid of religious instruction and sacraments in the classroom (which for some non-believers and people of other religions are a waste of time and a distraction from lessons).

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ahappychappy

I am very fortunate to have managed to get my kids into ET primary and secondary. ET are multi denomination, they teach children the fundamental aspects of the most popular faiths, the history of them, significant aspects of the belief system and mark/acknowledge them - so the school may do some art reflecting the colours and lights of Diwali, a crib outside reception, children of the Muslim faith celebrating Eid etc.

When it came to looking at secondary schools back in 2018, I was really frustrated at the lack of the "multi" in the so called "multicultural" ETB schools. We visited three ETB schools - each spoke about the class assembly's - in a room full of bibles and catholic ideology - they spoke about pupil recognition how they opened with a prayer but were free to abstain - not really inclusive. I know I am one of the very fortunate parents who had choice - what I would ask to those who say Catholic schools are inclusive is - opening your doors is not the same as to feeling equal, not "othered"- how would you feel if your child was educated in a different faith system- e.g. Muslim and the thread of the religion intertwining into other lessons. Imagine your child (not of the faith) praying five times a day or abstaining for praying five times a day - that may help you understand. My recollection of primary was prayer first thing, before lunch, after lunch and end of day and every celebration involving a mass. Listening to stories of hell as a non believer etc, the local priest popping in to give a talk about the saint of the day!

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145102#Comment_118145102

Religion has no place in any educational institution (beyond a seminary or madrasa etc. with the proviso that only grown adults may enrol). Faith is the antithesis of education.

Many of the "best" schools in the world are run by religious organisations, or were originally founded by such an order. A religious group can provide the structure and service of teaching, without it being a mouthpiece of it's religious agenda, and even if they are promoting their religious beliefs, in most cases, students (with parental consent) can avoid that focus, by not attending religious classes, or ceremonies.

Faith might be the antithesis of education, although I don't believe it actually is. Strict adherence to dogma is the antithesis of education, and that's a different scenario entirely. It's also something you can find in non-religious schools with their own agendas/biases to push.

I'd place my primary and secondary schooling as being quality education. The Marist Brothers did an excellent job. Yes, there was some importance placed on the Catholic religious beliefs, along with the symbolism being present in most rooms, but it wasn't forced on us. All the material taught in other schools was taught there, and there was nothing being removed for religious reasons. God knows, I've heard enough complaints from friends who didn't go to religious schools about the focus of the schooling, and the quality of teachers.

I don't have the hate that some here seem to have about religious organisations. I don't like religion, and I'll be happy to see it removed from society entirely, but I'd like to know that there is something replacing it.. and not just the mad rush to tear things down, without serious consideration for the future.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138970#Comment_118138970

ETB only have a handful of primary schools - and the religion syllabus they use was written by the catholic church!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090354#Comment_118090354

The standard bullshít response 🙄

Parents everywhere are NOT free to set up a school.

Department of Education will not sanction a new school in an area unless there is a shortage of places - and even then, they can just choose to extend the existing school(s)

So unless they're millionaires and can afford to fully fund building the school, running the school and paying teachers themselves, no, they can NOT just set up a school.

zedhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145102#Comment_118145102

This 100%. This is what should have happened. And not just for schools and education but also hospitals too. We should not be in a position where religious orders have any input into standard education and medical care.

If you want a religious ethos in your childrens education then it should be at your own time and expense.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144992#Comment_118144992

Well there is. We've just become immune to it. We don't take it seriously.

That its largely unsuccessful is a different issue.

For others though, they get upset about it.

Flinty997

Agreed huge opportunity missed.

Even if you think the church isn't all bad. Its unescapable that the church hierarchy, has largely acted in bad faith (ironically) since.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144974#Comment_118144974

Yes, in so far as they accept children from any faith background, and teach about all of them.

But you may like to find out what non-denominational actually means: Try Googling "non-denominational Church Dublin" - you may be surprised by the results.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144720#Comment_118144720

Yes, I'm not religious at all and would prefer secular education but the comments about children being indoctrinated like in nazi Germany and North Korea are just offensive. And deranged.

Sleepy

It's very, very simple: our state failed us by out-sourcing the education of our children to the Catholic Church in the early years of it's formation.

Once the systematic abuse of Irish children by religious orders became apparent, Fianna Fail failed in it's duty of care to Irish children rather spectacularly by allowing (the then Minister for Education) Michael Woods, a devout Catholic with links to Opus Dei and the Knights of Columbanus to effectively absolve the Catholic Church of it's crimes by limiting their liability for the compensation of their victims of abuse to only €128 million. (A scheme projected to cost Irish tax-payers €1.35 billion!) and to sign this agreement on our behalf without even putting it to cabinet for approval.

That had the potential to be a pivotal moment in Irish society imo: the state should have seized the school buildings and lands as the Order's contribution to the redress scheme, removed their representatives from the Boards of Management and used the opportunity as the basis for secularising our entire education system.

Religion has no place in any educational institution (beyond a seminary or madrasa etc. with the proviso that only grown adults may enrol). Faith is the antithesis of education.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144365#Comment_118144365

I often wonder do some people live in the real world?

If there are attempts are indoctrination happening in schools (hint: there aren't), then it's not working very well, as church attendance is falling!!!

I have children in a church-owned school, and obviously there isn't any indoctrination.

Some people seem to think it's 1921, not 2021.

Or that Ireland is full of madrasa schools.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143834#Comment_118143834

Are you sure ET are non-denominational?

Are they not multi denominational?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139476#Comment_118139476

Not a bit fan of movies and books then I guess.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137949#Comment_118137949

In sports too. Do you get rid of them too.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058215428/why-are-there-so-few-state-owned-state-run-schools-in-ireland

Because the change from people not wanting religion in schools is relatively recent. It won't change over night. The ET schools get built usually through local lobbying. From people wanting it built.

Being realistic if you live in the middle of nowhere you are going to get these changes last. Maybe even never if there isn't enough local demand.

[Deleted User]

Confirmation and communion events are optional. Religion classes are optional. There are Muslims going to Catholic schools without any problems.

I went to Catholic schools and didn't have any bad experiences due to its religious intent. The teachers and administrators were essentially good people, flawed, but then, nobody is perfect. Certainly none of the abusive behavior that many posters online seem to think happens everywhere there's a priest.

As for the hate for religion, I'm agnostic but was raised within the Catholic belief system, and it provided the foundation for a wide range of my moral beliefs, tempered by life experience, but it's there nonetheless. People are in such a rush to remove religion from society, but society today is not terribly good at teaching good morals, and there's more than enough bad parenting as well.

The days of being whipped into believing/accepting catholic beliefs is well gone. I see no problem with the existing status of religion in Irish society.. and would be happy that it remain at this level, as opposed to disappearing entirely.

[Deleted User]

Sometimes the term "child abuse" can really be... abused.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143988#Comment_118143988

Why not just take all the schools, and pay nothing for them?

The church stole all of the land and buildings off the people over the centuries anyway.

Was talking to a local priest a few years ago, nice enough chap. There was a hole in the church roof, and he said they didn't have the money to fix it. Asked him could he not just get a ladder and fix it. Said the ladder was stolen, and didn't have money for a new ladder. lol

It's getting bad when you can't afford a new ladder. It's only a matter of time before most of the land and buildings of the church will be derelict and falling apart anyway. There's simply not enough active "true believers" anymore to keep the show on the road.

Shao Kahn

All religious indoctrination of children, should be outlawed in the state.

Within schools, and everywhere else where it takes place. It's child abuse!

wotzgoingon

I didn't read through the thread so may have been mentioned before but I went to primary school in the 80's and loved all the Catholic stuff. The church was only down the road and we used to walk over for practicing communion and confirmation and also first confession and then there was the religious stories the teacher would tell. One year we even had a nun teaching us. She was great craic.

Grab All Association

There’s Muslim school girls in Thurles going to Catholic schools in the town wearing hijabs. Schools obviously respect their faith otherwise they’d have went to the VEC run colaiste mhuire

Freddie Mcinerney

I went to a convent style school in the 70s. Had a wooden measurement ruler for measuring curtains from my mother. Got into some friction with a nun. She wanted to hit me with the ruler. I replied back, if you do I'll be hitting you. Herself and the head nun shut up quickly.

Terry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058215428/why-are-there-so-few-state-owned-state-run-schools-in-ireland

The first government of the Irish Free State made a deal with the Catholic Church.

The church provided the land for schools, and in exchange, the schools would teach (force upon the kids) Catholicism.

At the end of the day, all Christian religions are the same. Believe in god, or go to hell. Just go with it. Your kids are going to grow up and realise that it's all lies anyway.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143753#Comment_118143753

Well that's true in practice but not really in law, most are still owned by the Catholic Church.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089638#Comment_118089638

You can keep them out of religions classes. I went to school 20 years ago in a catholic secondary school and the amount of religious education was close to zero. There were no religious teachers, no prayers, and religion as a subject was basically taught by secular teachers who talked about American imperialism. Civics classes mostly.

EDIT:

Of course primary school is different. I would get rid of confirmation and communion myself.

Strumms

if a law was made that outlawed the various churches having an input in education it would cost the state multiple billions probably.. that’s just to procure the schools...

there are 3 boys and 1 girls secondary schools within a 6 kilometer radius from me, all religious.... at a guess about 70-80 acres of land including car parks, school buildings, playing fields and pitches.

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143834#Comment_118143834

Thanks.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143822#Comment_118143822

Educate Together. Non denominational.

Freddie Mcinerney

What does ET stand for?

[Deleted User]

Most schools in this country are state schools.

They have a link with the church (and I agree the two should be separate) but they're still state schools. They're not private entities rolled by the church as you're misrepresenting them OP. If they weren't state schools you wouldn't be paying taxes towards them.

And no, the Irish education system isn't deeply racist (any elaboration at this point?) With that shoite you're just cementing people's suspicion of you as not being genuine.