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The creeping prominence of the Irish language

ireallydontknow

My university now sends me emails that are bilingual - sometimes with the texts side by side, sometimes with the Irish text first - with Irish often appearing in the subject line. The signs for lecture theatres have just this year been replaced to include Irish. A new student space is called 'Zón Mac Leinn'.

The Dart now makes announcements in Irish first. Signage in Pearse Dart station has been replaced giving Irish more prominence.

All council signs, such as those relating to pandemic restrictions, are bilingual, with the Irish appearing to the left or above the English.

The Lighthouse cinema is running a festival called Samhain na mBan, which is celebrating woman in horror.

It seems to me that certain laws about the prominence of Irish that were enacted quietly are now being acted on by Irish language zealots in public bodies.

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Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969631#Comment_117969631

I'm reliably informed by an Irish speaking friend (Yes I do have one or two) that many of these signs in Irish aren't correct. When the object of the exercise is to tick a bosca then accuracy isn't the primary consideration.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968883#Comment_117968883

I always have a good laugh at this term self hating Irish man. As if someone actually hates themselves.

People who use this term predominantly have never ventured more than a mile from whatever little parish they live.

When somebody proclaims a view that is at odds with the stereotype Irish Ness, oooh self hater, West brit, unpatriotic, get a bell you outcast.

Get out guys and open your eyes to a big world out there.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969530#Comment_117969530

It's interesting and pretty unique how quickly the Irish diaspora dropped the language wherever they went in the new world. And not just in the english speaking parts either. There's a pocket of Welsh speakers in Argentina, yet of Irish speakers, nada and there are a lot more of Irish ancestry in Argentina. In the US German immigrants kept their language going to the degree that there were areas of the US where much of daily life was conducted in German(until the first world war put an end to that). Chinese, Jewish, Dutch, Italian, Spanish Americans kept much more contact with their home languages than the Irish did. There were some attempts in the 19th century to keep things going like newspapers in Irish, but they pretty much died a death. What's even more surprising is that a large proportion, if not most of the migration in the 19th century was from rural Irish speaking areas. I can understand the social and economic advantages of being fluent in English, but it was an advantage to all disapora, most of whom kept more of their native languages in play even as local slang(a fair bit of it ending up in US English loan words, Yiddish an obvious one). In America I can see an extra pressure on the language as it's a WASP culture and alone among the other demographics more Irish could "pass" as being from that culture, so dropping Irish made sense to some degree I suppose. Still, we have an odd and often partisan relationship with the language.

I've an uncle who is fluent in Irish. My family on both sides are many generations of Dubliners so he's about the only one and he learned it because he married an Irish speaker. He was also a civil servant and from a time when it was the language of the service. He noted this strange attitude to the language when they removed the stipulation that it was to be used as the first language internally. The week after the majority continued as Bearla, with only a few holdouts, and as he pointed out these were people who were already fluent in the language. He was surprised at the speed of the shift.

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969815#Comment_117969815

The official irish language dictionary would disagree with you and your friends.

https://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/Zone

ireallydontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969689#Comment_117969689

Irish road signs is a continuation of this thread, so can be ignored as duplication. As for the other two, it's incredibly telling that you view criticism of the President's undignified conduct (he misled about the contents of the invitation and the timing of his response to it, he involved himself in party politics by criticising a political party, and he demeaned another office of state by calling John Bruton 'the former prime minister'), and a recognition that more unites than divides us from the country whose language we share, whose media and sport we consume in great quantities, whose politics we know more about than any other non-British country, and to where many of our young people have been emigrating out of choice for decades, as somehow shamefully un-Irish. And you finish it off with the old 'Why don't you go live there?' taunt. There are some criticisms that cut close to the bone, but suggesting that any Irish person has an allegiance to the Queen is so preposterous that it merely makes you seem ridiculous.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969363#Comment_117969363

Your effluent has been lapped up by others in this thread, but not even they could stomach giving a Thanks to such arrogance.

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969841#Comment_117969841

None of this is unique to Irish though there is much deeper things behind the speed of change in my view. For most languages, it was often lost by the third generation immigrants outside these smaller isolated strong holds.

There is pockets of places where immigrants kept the mother tongue, it'd be an exception (Newfoundland was one that existed for Irish btw). For the Irish, often there was more (perhaps only perceived) pressure to assimilate culturally to get accepted socially.

Your civil service example is a bit loaded too. The majority of those are English speakers natively. I'm not sure why you'd be surprised they would revert to the language they spoken natively when they could? This isn't much different to my experience working in multinationals today. Folks who spoke a language other than English converse in that language and switch to English only in shared situations.

Edit: typos

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969927#Comment_117969927

Newfoundland is a good example of the speed of change i mentioned. A fluent and isolated Irish stronghold in the 19th century and with the 20th barely a babe in the crib it was gone near overnight. It also largely mirrors the decline of the language at home and among the diaspora. In rude health at the start of the 19th century, staying pretty strong in the middle and even at the end of the same century, dying a death around the start of the 20th.

Even in Ireland as we kicked out London there were far more fully fluent Irish speakers around than today. It should have been a renaissance in the language like other nations that threw of the colonial linguistic yokes. In Spain when Franco died Basque saw a rebirth after being systematically held down under his rule(where it was illegal at one time to even christen a child with a Basque name). The ex Soviet Blocs were also quick enough to dig Russian out when that empire fell. Even Welsh has seen a greater rebirth than Irish. Those examples also happened more quickly. Even though at the foundation of this state we ploughed a lot of time, effort and hard cash into the language.

I remember reading that there are more fluent Dutch speakers than fluent Irish speakers in the US and Dutch Americans make up around three milllion Americans whereas Irish Americans are in the tens of millions, second only to Germans. Hell nearly two million Americans speak German and it's the second, albeit minority language in a few states. Usually after Spanish, another language that held on in that diaspora.

It does seem that the Irish in general like the "romance" of the language and like that it's around, but clearly at some remove and mostly as Bearla when discussing it. There will always be a solid minority who speak the language, which is a good thing and that wasn't so certain even thirty years ago, but beyond that I can't see it ever growing much in actual daily use outside of very narrow areas of Irish life.

AckwelFoley

If you make an observation that..oh well in France the signs are in French or similar, You're really not tuned into reality.

In France they speak French, and Arabic.

In Ireland we speak English, Polish or Roscommon English

Irish is a national language not spoken daily by the overwhelming majority

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969777#Comment_117969777

... which is why I said it depended on what you meant by first.

The only way Irish is the first language of Ireland is constitutionally. We could change that easily enough.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969980#Comment_117969980

In truth it cannot compete with a far bigger and more useful lingua franca. That's always been the way of things with minority languages.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970004#Comment_117970004

Oh certainly, that's a huge influence alright. It just it does seem that Irish is one of those minority languages that should have many more speakers for all sorts of reasons and advantages over other minority languages, but in practice it doesn't.

boombang

The OP's examples don't bother me, but my employer, a university, requires me to have an Irish language footer to be emails including my contact details in Irish. Same goes for any business cards. I don't speak a word of Irish and find this silly/irritating in as much as it applies to me personally and don't comply. I quite support train announcements, but stuff relating to contacting me as an individual is different.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970062#Comment_117970062

There’s more value to hearing Irish spoken than written.

[Deleted User]

I wonder how many posters to this thread can

a. Speak

b.Understand

c. Appreciate

Irish?

If none of the above then surely you see no value in it.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970000#Comment_117970000

It was pretty clear what was meant by ‘first’. I really don’t see the point in being wilfully ignorant.

And yes, we could change the constitution. But we haven’t done, so that fantasy is completely irrelevant.

Bizarre.

Cyclingtourist

People love to quote section 8 of the constitution about Irish being the first official language and English being another official language but then leave out the follow up which states:

Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969996#Comment_117969996

In France they speak French along with literally dozens of native minority languages, including Basque, Corsican and Breton. The "overwhelming majority" speak French, yes, but imagine saying to a Corsican that they shouldn't have bilingual signs on Corsica and they would laugh in your face, along with anybody who speaks a minority language in a country where a major world language is spoken. Apart from Ireland.

I would be particularly more worldly than the average boards.ie user and in my experience I have found that monolingual speakers of English have an impressive arrogant close-mindedness regarding English. Namely that due to its prominence as the most widely spoken world language and "lingua franca" (because we naturally define ourselves only through the prism of commerce) it is somehow the "default" language that people have to speak, as if it is hardwired into our brain, and its the unit of measurement by which every other language must measure.

This, of course, means nothing to the native Irish speaker (or speaker of any other language) who don't define a language by it's "usefulness" or even feel a need to define a language at all. It is simply the language they speak at home, with their parents, with their siblings and with their children. And they are fed up of constantly having to explain themselves to the English speaking zealots who foam at the mouth at the audacity of hearing bus announcements in Irish. In Ireland of all places.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970285#Comment_117970285

You give fine examples that are not comparable

Corsican or Breton isn't shoved down the throats of Parisians.

In corsica they are bilingual and on the island will use their native language to a far higher degree than Irish in Ireland, the same applies to the brecon language. Irish isn't spoken in Dublin Athlone cork or Waterford to any significant degree, so bus announcement in Irish are idiotic when maybe 1 In 1000 uses Irish daily as their first language

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969689#Comment_117969689

Isn't it curious that any citizen that points out that the emperor has no clothes is immediately accused of whinging and/or loving the Brits etc. There are a wide variety of views on all such matters in Ireland, all deserve to be heard and considered. I'm as patriotic an Irishman as any but I believe in true patriotism - that you do what you can for your country of birth and leave it a better place than whence you arrived. I don't care for narrow minded selfish inward looking nationalism.

[Deleted User]

There’s nothing intrinsically bad about Irish -it comes down to perception and one’s perception based on experience and knowledge. What one knows it not necessarily true however.

Riclad says “many Irish people decided it was important to be able to speak English to get a job or work most books and newspapers were published in English the no of people who spoke Irish or were fluent in it declined” - partial truth at best here. The policy of colonial imperialism in Ireland was to obliterate culture in order to assimilate it. People were forced to change their own names-(perhaps your own family name included!) It was punishable to practice traditions/customs/spiritual beliefs/sports/living habits -for some to the point of death. It became illegal to speak Irish, children who only could only speak Irish (as that’s all their parents had) would get a beating in school for uttering a word of it. There was a system whereby a leather strap would be hung around the neck and a notch would be cut in it for breaking ‘rules’ including speaking Irish. Parents were encouraged to scold the child if they arrived home with a notch. Can you imagine the level of fear and oppression that would have you redically alter what you spoke! It was linguistic genocide.

That is a clearer picture of having a language ‘shoved down the throat’ .

Place names were Anglicised beyond the roots of meaning to gobbledygook and that, sadly is the accepted form for many, (though thankfully not all) . To favour words with little or no meaning - is an indicative effect of colonialism upon the psyche.

Wibbs

I agree with CGI as far as this "usefulness" reductionism going on with some in regard to the language. A language is far more than just base usefulness, though obviously the more of that going on the less under threat a language is.

That said Irish is a bit of an outlier compared to other minority languages. Not least with the resources thrown at it over the last century. Ackwel does have a point as far as other such languages go. It exists in an odd halfway house. On the one hand we say it's important and can even be quite defensive about it, yet few of us speak it and even fewer speak it fluently. There is a lot of cupla focal "fluency" out there. This halfway house extends to the authorities tasked with preservation and promotion. As he pointed out Breton is not on the public radar or Parisians, just like Basque isn't on the radar of Madrilenos and so forth.

The problem is - and this was the problem with my schooling in it and something that is not acknowledged for the optics - Irish is a foreign language for the majority of Irish people. Yet we teach it, or at least taught it, as if we should automatically latch onto it like "natives". I retained more French, even Latin compared to Irish from my schooldays even though I grew up surrounded by the language in media and the like mostly because they were accepted and taught as foreign languages out of the gate. It also didn't help that it was much more a rural language and that didn't really take in the Dublin I grew up in where there was quite the urban/rural divide. Though there had been a large move from rural to urban areas, particularly Dublin from the 40's onwards. Vanishingly few of my friends went back more than one or two generations in the place. Even so it seemed that at least for that first generation they wanted to leave the "rural" behind, which included the language for many if not most*

*and accents for many too. Ireland had one of the highest number of elocution teachers in the west. To smooth off the rural. Not too unlike the diaspora dropping the language to fit in and move up.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970354#Comment_117970354

The only people who have a language shoved down their throats on this island are Irish speakers. Generations of Irish language speakers have been scorned for using their own language and that trend continues to this day.

And before anyone starts pointing to that Peig “bet into us” nonsense consider how rare it is to ever hear any Irish speakers complaining about being forced to study Shakespeare in school. It just doesn’t happen.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970576#Comment_117970576

To be fair a goodly number of my peers at school baulked at having to learn Shakespeare's stuff too. And even a few lines of Liam's ouevre makes Peig look like the dour stone soaked misery peddler she was. In any language. "I lost 18 childer to the great bog fart of 88 and that was the year my hair burnt down and a halibut ate my toe". Whoever thought that guff was of any relevance or would strike any sympathetic chord in kids must have been smoking peat moss of the funny sort. Then again we were in the grip of "Catholic Ireland" and our Catholicism was very much of the slow walking in purgatory through the vale of misty tears sort compared to the Latin versions. so there's that. Misery porn was in, as Flann O'Brien noted and extracted the urine from to great effect. I gather those that came after me have not had to suffer the witterings of that oul crone. This is a good thing.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970640#Comment_117970640

It was worth getting through 5 pages of this topic to read your post - hilarious 😂

Strumms

Everybody who speaks Irish, speaks English and understands it. Therefore there is no reason to waste money and produce cluttered signage incorporating both languages, English only.

waste of fûckin money.

tdf7187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967143#Comment_117967143

Amazed that this post gets 33 likes. There is really no comparison. When was the last time outside of a classroom setting or the DART announcements you heard Irish spoken in a public (or for that matter private) place? Be honest now. It's a dying language and the efforts to save it are a massive case of national virtue signalling.

This is literally the only issue where the DUP have a valid point.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/arid-30649728.html

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970705#Comment_117970705

By your logic we could do away with signage altogether as most people should know where they’re going by now, reading is a distraction to driving anyway, asking directions from randomers would encourage communication between different social groups … this would also save you some money 😆

cj maxx

The amount of children in Gaelscoile ? is huge. Every Gaelscoil I now is full. Who really cares if the luas announces stops in Irish. Mountain out of a molehill.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969560#Comment_117969560

I hear what you're saying. I was fluent when I left school in the early 1980s - not a native speaker, but a fluent one. I quit speaking for over 30 years. I wasn't one of the "house Paddies"; I just got too busy with other stuff. Oddly enough, it was the Joe McHugh story that renewed my interest. You might recall he was appointed as Aire Stáit na Gaeltachta but couldn't speak the language, so on the suggestion of then Taoiseach Enda Kenny he spent some time in Gleann Cholm Cille in SW Donegal learning the language. Because of the news story, I signed up for a course and went to the same place. It helped me recapture the fluency I'd lost, and these days a fair percentage of my social life is carried on as Gaeilge. I've heard of these "zealous sorts", but it is a very long time since I met one of them. There are people in my social circle with whom I find it extraordinarily difficult or impossible to converse in English, even though they and I are native speakers of the language.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970760#Comment_117970760

Yesterday, in a garden centre … there were 2older ones and three little kids yapping away -was nice to see/hear another generation…and in Dublin too!