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The UK response - Part II - read OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,532 ✭✭✭✭Lumen




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,660 ✭✭✭brickster69


    85 million doses now been handed out

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

    The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters. — Antonio Gramsci



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,429 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus



    Variants form by random mutation. Nobody controls this (except in so far as suppressing overall infection numbers decreases the opportunities for new variants to emerge - the fewer covid cases, the fewer covid variants).

    But we can do a lot to influence how readily newly-formed variants spread.

    There's a fairly strongly-held viewpoint amongst epidemiologists that removing all social restrictions at a time when about 50% of the population is vaccinated is pretty much the experiment you would design if you were seeking to maximise the chances of a vaccine-resistant virus becoming dominant. You've got a large unvaccinated population in which infection spreads easily, which maximises the opportunties for genetic variations to emerge, plus a large vaccinated population who are susceptible only to vaccine-resistant variants, which maximises the relative advantage that vaccine-resistant variants have over other variants.



  • Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    which is completely the opposite scenario to when the Alpha variant evolved. That was at a time of low infections and zero vaccines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,660 ✭✭✭brickster69


    The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters. — Antonio Gramsci



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭snowcat


    Low infections. It was worse than Ebola when it started now that strand was slightly less worse than the cold.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭snowcat


    I remember when vaccine aficinados rediculed me when i said the vaccine would last 6 months about 6 months ago. Pfizer are the winners here. Queue up for the boosters boys and the price will be going up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,429 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I know. Nobody says that variants can't evolve and spread when there are low infections and zero vaccinations; just that you optimise the conditions for the development, spread and dominance of vaccine-resistant variants by removing infection control restrictions at a time when half the population is vaccinated and half is not.



  • Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    How?

    Surely the optimum conditions by that logic, are when 90% of people are vaccinated and there are still a large number of infections, which means we will be a constant cycle of lockdowns for ever more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,429 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The argument, as I understand it, is:

    (a) Having a large pool of unvaccinated people maximises the number of people who get infected. Since genetic variation occurs randomly, the more infected people there are the more variants will emerge. Many of these will be non-viable, or will be less well-adapted than the already prevalent variants; they won't survive or propagate. But it's the new variants that are more easily transmitted, or cause more severe disease, or both, that should worry us. And, the more variants that emerge, the greater the likelihood that a variant will emerge that possesses these characteristics, and that is resistant to the current vaccines.

    (b) Having a large pool of vaccinated people means that vaccine-resistant variants will enjoy a darwinian advantage - the pool of people who can (a) catch, and (b) transmit vaccine-resistant covid variants will (if the population is 50% vaccinated) be twice as large as the pool of people who can catch nonresistant variants . So resistant variants will tend to spread more quickly and more widely than the nonresistant variants.

    So, having 50% vaccinated and 50% unvaccinated is a lousy combination, and not the time at which to start dismantling infection control measures.

    If you get to a point where it's, say, 90% vaccinated and 10% not (and if you get to this point before vaccine-resistant variants are widespread) that's a much safer place to be. In this situation only vaccine-resistant variants are ever likely to spread because, if you have a nonresistant variant, 90% of the people you come in contact with will be immune to it. But vaccine-resistant variants are less likely to emerge (or will emerge less frequently) because, with 90% of the population vaccinated and vaccine-resistant variants not yet prevalent, the total number of infected people will be small, and as a result the rate at which new variants emerge will be greatly reduced. This doesn't mean that a vaccine-resistant variant won't arise by mutation, but fewer of them will arise, and at a slower pace, and it will be easier to focus attention and resources to develop treatments and new vaccines that are effective against them.

    Basically, on this view, you don't have enduring herd immunity until the great bulk of the population - well over 50% - are vaccinated with vaccines that are substantially effective against all endemic variants of the virus.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Ok interesting perspective however to reach the 90% (or even 80%) figure you essentially have to vaccinate children.

    To date the Covid risks for children are quite low - there are some but low. As we know there are also risks with vaccines.

    So do you believe children should be vaccinated?



  • Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would have thought the whole theory falls down on the fact that the vaccines do not create 100% immunity and people therefore still catch the virus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,660 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Looks like Friday's Freedom Day for Wales is still on track.


    The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters. — Antonio Gramsci



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Most restrictions in Scotland will be removed next week

    Face masks are still required indoors as now and need to record your details inside hospitality but that seems to be all that remains



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,660 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Tuesday is normally catch up day on the death side

    The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters. — Antonio Gramsci



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,860 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    How do you mean ahead? If you mean % wise then that's not a fair comparison since their population is 13 times ours, so in real numbers they are way ahead of use. Not only that but they have lifted restrictions when it was thought risky to do so because of rising infections but weeks later it appears touch wood that has been a success and now we have the UK's experience to go on which is a benefit to us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,860 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    ....and wouldn't you have to shut the boarders as well because a deadlier more transmissible virus could get in that way, and not open them until 90% of the global population is vaccinated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Covid is probably here to stay with new variants emerging regularly.All we can hope is that the scientists can keep up with it.

    Even those amongst you who are sceptical of the UK strategy must admit that sooner or later you'll have to just get on with it.

    Post edited by RobMc59 on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Vaccinating children to me seems like an inevitability. I think the risk of children as a spreading vector has been deliberately underplayed from the start, and I am sure there is already a smart variant that is taking advantage of this dogma.

    (Anyone worked out how to do only partial quotes of posts?)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,429 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The reason you vaccinate anybody against any infectious disease is only partly on account of the risk to themselves; it's also on account of the risk they pose to others, should they become infected. So if children are susceptible to infection and can become infectious, there is a benefit to society, and not just to the children concerned, in vaccinating them.

    It doesn't follow that you should vaccinate children. You have to weigh the benefit against actual or possible detriments - is the vaccine safe for children? Is it effective in children? Do children respond differently to the vaccine than adults do? (This is common.) You can't just map the data you have about adults onto children to answer these questions; they have to be investigated in their own right. I don't know the answers to these questions, and therefore I don't have a view as to whether we should vaccinate children or not, beyond saying "certainly not until the answers to these questions are known".

    I'd also add that the 90% figure I mentioned in my post is plucked out of the air for illustration. I don't know what level of vaccination is needed to arrive at enduring herd immunity. The answer to that question depends on things like, how effective are the vaccines we have against different variants? How transmissible are the different variants? These aren't simple binaries. Maybe we've got good herd immunity at 65% vaccination; maybe it takes 90%. Which throws up another question that has to be considered when it comes to vaccinating children; do we need to vaccinate children in order to acheive enduring herd immunity? If we don't, it becomes a lot easier to decide not to vaccinate them. If we do, a whole other ball game. Maybe in that scenario the choice becomes "do we vaccinate children, or put up with some level of social distancing/restriction for ever, or accept an endemic disease that will have signficant ongoing mortality and other detriments for ever?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,429 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Nope. The fact that something is not 100% effective does not mean that it is wholly ineffective. The only disease we have ever completely eradicated through vaccination is smallpox, but we still vaccinate against a huge range of diseases - measles, mumps, rubella, polio, diphtheria, tetanus, tuberculosis, flu, hepatitis A, hepatis B, human papilloma virus, tetanus, pertussis, meningococcal disease . . . the list is endless. People still get these diseases, and variants of these disease still emerge, but vaccination is sufficiently effective to slow down the rate at which variants emerge to make it feasible to identify and control them with a high degree of efficacy.

    That, basically, is what we hope for with Covid-19. And it's not an unrealistic hope, by any means. The epidemiological criticism of the UK's "freedom day" is not so much the concept as the timing; a time at which only 50% of the population is vaccinated is too soon. It creates an unnecessary opportunity for new variants - and especially vaccine-resistant variants - to flourish rapidly, and that's a risk we don't need to run, since the same "freedom day", implemented when significantly more of the population was vacccinated, would create significantly less risk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,429 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus




  • Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    are you able to link to this epidemiological criticism, it would be interesting to read the theory behind it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,532 ✭✭✭✭Lumen




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭FlubberJones


    "fellow subjects of the crown"... FFS LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL... what a joker.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭FlubberJones


    Its the ridiculous term you used,

    The numbers are not in debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭FlubberJones


    I'm not even going to debate this... you're a joker. Have a good day. LOL



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Ok but if say 80% of the adult population are vaccinated and the people most at risk are adults that have been offered a vaccine but have refused. You are then advocating that children are vaccinated to mostly protect those who refuse to be vaccinated themselves. There is no justification for this.



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