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All Homes to be re-valued for Property Tax in November 2021

SusanC10

Haven't found this posted elsewhere but it looks like all residential property is to be re-valued for Property Tax in November this year.

Also all new homes since 2013 will need to pay Property Tax.

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0601/1225282-recovery-plan/

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Ger Roe

Agreed, we are long overdue a menu of charges for the services we can expect from councils.
'
Anytime you ask what you get for your tax you are fobbed off with 'libraries and swimming pools' etc.... It is very hard to get an actual list of service entitlements off them, try getting a road fixed or grass cut or tree maintained - we used to get these for our tax payments before they made up the property tax. We also got bin collections paid for as well, before we went down the private enterprise route where you pay separately and will keep paying more for your less waste collected because if we all reduce as much as we should, the business becomes unsustainable, without cost increases.

While I agree we should have a list of services and charges, I would also argue that we were already paying for these services before property tax.

[Deleted User]

No contribution for water supply?

L1011

touts wrote: »

Fully agree with property tax to pay for services but it should be based on those services not on some fictional valuation of the house.

Start with a base of say €20
Connected to public sewer. €20
Street lighting outside your house €5
Footpath outside your house €5
Within 5km of a motorway €5
Within 5km of a Library. €5
Within 2km of a School €5
Within 1km of a public transportation link €5
And so on

Basically add up every service in your area that the tax is supposed to pay for and pay a small contribution to that service. Those services generally add to the value of the house anyway but this way people can see what their tax is paying for. People benefitting the most from state services the most pay the most .

This would leave isolated houses that are exceptionally expensive to serve paying less than urban dwellings which are comparatively cheap

The eight streetlights on my road of 60 houses will cost less to maintain (and probably to install - but as they were developer supplied the house cost covered that) than one for a rural house

touts

Fully agree with property tax to pay for services but it should be based on those services not on some fictional valuation of the house.

Start with a base of say €20
Connected to public sewer. €20
Street lighting outside your house €5
Footpath outside your house €5
Within 5km of a motorway €5
Within 5km of a Library. €5
Within 2km of a School €5
Within 1km of a public transportation link €5
And so on

Basically add up every service in your area that the tax is supposed to pay for and pay a small contribution to that service. Those services generally add to the value of the house anyway but this way people can see what their tax is paying for. People benefitting the most from state services pay the most .

Dempo1

L1011 wrote: »

Its not delays to a process; its deliberate delays by Governments scared of electoral responses.

It was delayed in Budget 2016 by Noonan as there was an election looming, and in Budget 2019 by O'Donoghue as there was an election looming. It was most recently kicked out a final year due to COVID.

If the coalition was shakier they probably would have kicked it out again.

Yes I'm hearing you, just galling all the same

L1011

Dempo1 wrote: »

Ah, I understood, thanks but it's just quite shocking so many properties exempted and for what appears to be delays in a, process, just appalling, I genuinely had not idea this was the situation

Its not delays to a process; its deliberate delays by Governments scared of electoral responses.

It was delayed in Budget 2016 by Noonan as there was an election looming, and in Budget 2019 by O'Donoghue as there was an election looming. It was most recently kicked out a final year due to COVID.

If the coalition was shakier they probably would have kicked it out again.

Dempo1

L1011 wrote: »

Its self-declaration. You're sent a suggested band but can correct this at will

Now, if you sell a house for vastly more than the band you had picked, you may be asked to explain this!

The valuation date is the only thing that was outstanding - Revenue/councils do not actually value the house.

The date was kicked out, repeatedly, to try protect the sitting Governments seats in various elections.

Ah, I understood, thanks but it's just quite shocking so many properties exempted and for what appears to be delays in a, process, just appalling, I genuinely had not idea this was the situation

Dempo1

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

There has been lots in the media about it; this is a recent example:- https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40295174.html

And bodies like the ESRI have been quite critical of the fact that Paschal ran into his garden shed to hide whenever the subject was raised.

Honestly, I'd been away but still paying the tax, genuinely wasn't aware and just accepted the situation without question, my blood pressure rising

Ger Roe

C14N wrote: »

I don't understand this argument. How is property tax regressive? If your property has a higher value, you pay more, and property owners in general are more likely to have higher wealth than non-property owners.

Because it has no relationship with your ability to pay. It is a notional value should you want to sell your house and would be OK if you paid it then. But .... my wages have not increased and I don't see how I need to pay more tax because my neighbours have sold their houses and apparently raised the value of my house at the same time.

I am not selling and it is already costing me more of my supposedly disposable (after tax income) to maintain it and now I have to pay more tax because someone else decides to value my house at a higher rate???? Anyway, I bought and paid for my house with my own money... without needing or getting any help from government, in fact I saved them money by doing so.... why then do I have to be punished for that achievement?

I was told at school that tax has to be fair and seen to be so, this is not. Tax the sale price, if you have to... not the estimate.

L1011

Dempo1 wrote: »

I don't believe it is a self declaration tax (property) its assessed by local authorities? I do believe there are exemptions for properties affected by this dreadful nightmare and besides, likely most of these properties built after 2013, I'm open to correction on this

Its self-declaration. You're sent a suggested band but can correct this at will

Now, if you sell a house for vastly more than the band you had picked, you may be asked to explain this!

Dempo1 wrote: »

Is it seriously the argument its taken 8 years to comparable valuations, this is just beggar's belief, how long has the property register been in operation. I just don't get this argument, not being critical of you, just this extraordinary situation.

The valuation date is the only thing that was outstanding - Revenue/councils do not actually value the house.

The date was kicked out, repeatedly, to try protect the sitting Governments seats in various elections.

Dempo1

L1011 wrote: »

Houses built >2013 haven't got a comparable valuation date hence can't be taxed, there is a new valuation date in November 2021 so that sorts that out.

It will then be the case that >2022 houses aren't taxed til a valuation date is set again. The original revaluation date was meant to be something like 2015 but has been repeatedly booted down the road when elections loom.

Is it seriously the argument its taken 8 years to comparable valuations, this is just beggar's belief, how long has the property register been in operation. I just don't get this argument, not being critical of you, just this extraordinary situation.

Jerry Attrick

Dempo1 wrote: »

But surely quietly doing something about it won't cut mustard, I wonder has there been any test cases or legal discussions on this situation, I'm just actually shocked to learn this today.

I can genuinely understand exemptions when fair, ghost, unfinished estates etc but there's been substantial developments since then with full services, amenities etc, it's just extraordinary.

There has been lots in the media about it; this is a recent example:- https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40295174.html

And bodies like the ESRI have been quite critical of the fact that Paschal ran into his garden shed to hide whenever the subject was raised.

nibtrix

One of the madder things about it was that buying ANY house in 2013 exempted you from LPT, not just a new build. I think it was revealed as an error they made at the time which was removed for subsequent years, but has still meant 8 years exemption for anyone who bought a second hand house that year and kept it as their main residence.

Properties that are exempt from Local Property Tax
Properties purchased in 2013 are exempt until the end of 2021 if used as your sole or main residence. If the property is subsequently sold or ceases to be your main residence between 2013 and 2020, the exemption no longer applies.[\quote]

Dempo1

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

The goverenment (quietly) agrees with you that it's legally questionable, that's why they're doing something about it.

The main reason that it wasn't done earlier was because of FG's political cowardice, knowing that as the value of housing rose sharply so too would the cost of the tax; leading to fears of them losing seats in elections (general, local and European).

But surely quietly doing something about it won't cut mustard, I wonder has there been any test cases or legal discussions on this situation, I'm just actually shocked to learn this today.

I can genuinely understand exemptions when fair, ghost, unfinished estates etc but there's been substantial developments since then with full services, amenities etc, it's just extraordinary.

howiya

Dav010 wrote: »

It may be the least worst way of assessing owners for property tax. The counter argument to your example is the person earning less may have lower outgoings than EO’B, or may have paid considerably less for the house. So valuing properties in bands may be the fairest, everyone hates it equally.

Yeah I don't have a strong opinion on it either way. Just answering why it is considered to be a regressive tax.

Dempo1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

LPT is far too low, should be double if not more

Are you offering to pay mine? What kind of statement is that?

Dempo1

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

It'as a self-declaration tax. Surely anyone unfortunate enough to own such a house would value it at close to zero as it's completely unsaleable?

I don't believe it is a self declaration tax (property) its assessed by local authorities? I do believe there are exemptions for properties affected by this dreadful nightmare and besides, likely most of these properties built after 2013, I'm open to correction on this

[Deleted User]

LPT is far too low, should be double if not more

Jerry Attrick

Dempo1 wrote: »

I understood quite incorrectly only properties in un finished /ghost estates where exempt from this offensive Tax, not all houses built after 2013, am I understanding this correctly?

If true, its outrageous and surely legally questionable. How can it be a new build house not affected by the crash debacle not be taxable, it makes absolutely no sense and extremely unfair. I've been paying property tax since the start, admitidly as I've a small restored cottage in the middle of nowhere, I'm on lower band but that's not the point.

The goverenment (quietly) agrees with you that it's legally questionable, that's why they're doing something about it.

The main reason that it wasn't done earlier was because of FG's political cowardice, knowing that as the value of housing rose sharply so too would the cost of the tax; leading to fears of them losing seats in elections (general, local and European).

L1011

Dempo1 wrote: »

I understood quite incorrectly only properties in un finished /ghost estates where exempt from this offensive Tax, not all houses built after 2013, am I understanding this correctly?

If true, its outrageous and surely legally questionable. How can it be a new build house not affected by the crash debacle not be taxable, it makes absolutely no sense and extremely unfair. I've been paying property tax since the start, admitidly as I've a small restored cottage in the middle of nowhere, I'm on lower band but that's not the point.

Houses built >2013 haven't got a comparable valuation date hence can't be taxed, there is a new valuation date in November 2021 so that sorts that out.

It will then be the case that >2022 houses aren't taxed til a valuation date is set again. The original revaluation date was meant to be something like 2015 but has been repeatedly booted down the road when elections loom.

Jerry Attrick

NIMAN wrote: »

Yet they ask homeowners whose houses have Mica and are falling down, to pay it.

It'as a self-declaration tax. Surely anyone unfortunate enough to own such a house would value it at close to zero as it's completely unsaleable?

Dempo1

I understood quite incorrectly only properties in un finished /ghost estates where exempt from this offensive Tax, not all houses built after 2013, am I understanding this correctly?

If true, its outrageous and surely legally questionable. How can it be a new build house not affected by the crash debacle not be taxable, it makes absolutely no sense and extremely unfair. I've been paying property tax since the start, admitidly as I've a small restored cottage in the middle of nowhere, I'm on lower band but that's not the point.

[Deleted User]

howiya wrote: »

Property tax is regressive because there is no consideration of an individuals ability to pay.

Very simplistic example. Eoin O'Broin and his neighbour own houses with equal value or within the same band. Eoin earns a TDs salary while the neighbour earns 30-40k a year yet they will pay the same amount of LPT.

On the other hand income tax is progressive because Eoin will pay more than the neighbour.

It may be the least worst way of assessing owners for property tax. The counter argument to your example is the person earning less may have lower outgoings than EO’B, or may have paid considerably less for the house. So valuing properties in bands may be the fairest, everyone hates it equally.

howiya

Murph85 wrote: »

60 million? Lol ! That figure did seem way too high, I remember lpt bringing In a pittance... suppose it will keep the lights on in the coutry for a few minutes though...

RTE.ie saying will increase from 480-490m to 560m with most of the increase as a result of the inclusion of the new builds from 2013 onwards.

howiya

C14N wrote: »

I don't understand this argument. How is property tax regressive? If your property has a higher value, you pay more, and property owners in general are more likely to have higher wealth than non-property owners.

Property tax is regressive because there is no consideration of an individuals ability to pay.

Very simplistic example. Eoin O'Broin and his neighbour own houses with equal value or within the same band. Eoin earns a TDs salary while the neighbour earns 30-40k a year yet they will pay the same amount of LPT.

On the other hand income tax is progressive because Eoin will pay more than the neighbour.

Murph85

Geuze wrote: »

Mistake by reporter.

LPT now = 500m approx

After these changes = 560m

60 million? Lol ! That figure did seem way too high, I remember lpt bringing In a pittance... suppose it will keep the lights on in the coutry for a few minutes though...

awec

C14N wrote: »

I don't understand this argument. How is property tax regressive? If your property has a higher value, you pay more, and property owners in general are more likely to have higher wealth than non-property owners.

Lots of SF voters living in high value housing in the cities.

cubatahavana

bilbot79 wrote: »

Great. Bought a new build this year and only found out by this piece of news that new builds haven't been incurring property tax. The Lord giveth...and he taketh away.

exact same as me. I went to register on the revenue website and found out I didn't have to pay it

bilbot79

Great. Bought a new build this year and only found out by this piece of news that new builds haven't been incurring property tax. The Lord giveth...and he taketh away.

Geuze

Murph85 wrote: »

I read in the Irish times it would raise 561 million extra ... ...

Mistake by reporter.

LPT now = 500m approx

After these changes = 560m