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Forced to work from home

Padre_Pio

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

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[Deleted User]

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

I'm pointing out that the folks complaining on here just need to have a chat with their employers. Anyway - have a good one.

[Deleted User]

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

I can't speak for private sector companies, but my contract / terms and conditions as a civil servant has never, ever, given one specific office location. I am assigned to a department.

I have worked in at least six different departments over the years and my current department has multiple buildings right across Dublin. I can be reassigned to any one of these buildings at any time. There is no "opting out" because it doesn't suit you.

So the "your employer can't just choose to change your location" argument really doesn't hold water, for me.

If a private sector employer lease is up on their premises and they decide to move from one location to another, does that mean they have to renegotiate contracts with every employee first? I highly doubt it.

Mrs OBumble

ineedeuro wrote: »

They do is the contract allows for it.

Who has a contract which says "Your place of work is Unit 123 at BallyValley Business Park, or any other company location within a reasonable distance of this, or you may be required to provide a suitable workplace within the Republic of Ireland, at your cost".

Giving people the option to work remotely is fine.

Telling them to work from home if possible, due to a global pandemic, is fine too.

Telling them that from now own they will work mainly remotely and that they must provide a suitable workspace for this is a a fundamental change to terms and conditions of employment. It is totally not fine.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can't speak for private sector companies, but my contract / terms and conditions as a civil servant has never, ever, given one specific office location. I am assigned to a department.

I have worked in at least six different departments over the years and my current department has multiple buildings right across Dublin. I can be reassigned to any one of these buildings at any time. There is no "opting out" because it doesn't suit you.

So the "your employer can't just choose to change your location" argument really doesn't hold water, for me.

If a private sector employer lease is up on their premises and they decide to move from one location to another, does that mean they have to renegotiate contracts with every employee first? I highly doubt it.

Distance counts.

https://www.mondaq.com/ireland/employment-litigation-tribunals/101502/relocation-clauses

The bigger question in this scenario is not the geographical distance of the move, but the elimination of the office workplace.

[Deleted User]

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Forsa is actively seeking an opt out from WFH option for public servants.

Mastroianni

guys any opinions about the hypothetical return to office by September?

ineedeuro

Mastroianni wrote: »

guys any opinions about the hypothetical return to office by September?

Seems to be a common enough prediction. Not sure if people want to try WFH till after the summer or what.

I know a couple of people working outside of Ireland now are planning on returning to Ireland and back into office for Sept

BonnieSituation

The Student wrote: »

The different legal min employment requirements have been highlighted to you already in this thread.

The different income tax, Social insurance payments have also been highlighted to you.

In normal circumstances I actually would help people with these type of queries but you seem to have an issue.

You are either unwilling or unable to check out why working from home in another country is not widely available.

I am therefore stepping away from responding to any of your future posts.

I am working remotely in Ireland and my place of work is in another jurisdiction.

My employer is aware of this. As are Revenue.

You make it sound like it's some sort of nefarious practice.

It's because of this I get to have a bank holiday day off today.

floorpie

Mastroianni wrote: »

guys any opinions about the hypothetical return to office by September?

Vaccinations aren't expected to be completed until September and I suppose we should anticipate delays, so personally I couldn't imagine return to office until Oct/Nov. Who knows.

The Student

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I am working remotely in Ireland and my place of work is in another jurisdiction.

My employer is aware of this. As are Revenue.

You make it sound like it's some sort of nefarious practice.

It's because of this I get to have a bank holiday day off today.

You are allowed do this for short periods of time. You are allowed do it permanently with the appropriate legal set up etc.

The original poster was looking to do same permanently.

Your organisation may be doing everything correctly or they may not be hoping they don't get caught.

Who do you pay your social insurance contributions to?

Mic 1972

ineedeuro wrote: »

No it’s not. A good manager knows how to deal with and get the best out of everyone. Putting everyone into the same bracket and just ignoring them is a recipe for disaster

If what you said was true then companies wouldn’t be trying to bring in special needs people etc which should be a policy of every company.

Knowing that an employee has a special situation and might need a different approach is what makes a good manager and a good company

You don't seem to have much experience with people management and HR, especially in big multinationals
People with special needs as in physical disability are not the same as people who have a need to work from abroad. And even in the case of special needs the company will have a standard policy, not a specially customized one

BonnieSituation

The Student wrote: »

You are allowed do this for short periods of time. You are allowed do it permanently with the appropriate legal set up etc.

The original poster was looking to do same permanently.

Your organisation may be doing everything correctly or they may not be hoping they don't get caught.

Who do you pay your social insurance contributions to?

You should get onto the HR and finance departments of the rather large utility company I work for and advise them.

It's preposterous that you'd even think that "they'd hope they won't get get caught".

I think they slipped up by telling the local tax organisation as well though if they were trying to hide it.

Utterly bizarre.

The Student

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You should get onto the HR and finance departments of the rather large utility company I work for and advise them.

It's preposterous that you'd even think that "they'd hope they won't get get caught".

I think they slipped up by telling the local tax organisation as well though if they were trying to hide it.

Utterly bizarre.

Firstly I have no idea who you work for. Secondly if it is a large company then they will no doubt be doing everything correctly. Thirdly small firms are doing this without the correct set up as I am aware of one personally and I doubt they are the only ones doing it. How widespread it is I don't know.

What arrangements do you have for social insurance payments?

ineedeuro

Mic 1972 wrote: »

You don't seem to have much experience with people management and HR, especially in big multinationals
People with special needs as in physical disability are not the same as people who have a need to work from abroad. And even in the case of special needs the company will have a standard policy, not a specially customized one

I do love on boards everyone is trying to big themselves up.
Do you think your point is more forceful because you try to make out you are part of a "big multinational"?

Same as person above, it's not a utilities company, it is a "rather large utility company".

Mic 1972

ineedeuro wrote: »

I do love on boards everyone is trying to big themselves up.
Do you think your point is more forceful because you try to make out you are part of a "big multinational"?

Same as person above, it's not a utilities company, it is a "rather large utility company".

I worked in people management for many years, requests for exceptional treatment are extremely frequent, staff memebers speak to one another and know very well what they can ask based on what was previously granted to others.

A manager cant make decisions outside of HR policies.

ineedeuro

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I worked in people management for many years, requests for exceptional treatment are extremely frequent, staff memebers speak to one another and know very well what they can ask based on what was previously granted to others.

A manager cant make decisions outside of HR policies.

Why would people be constantly making requested for exceptional treatment if as you say they are already aware it isn't company policy? seems to be a bit of a conflict doesn't it?

[Deleted User]

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I worked in people management for many years, requests for exceptional treatment are extremely frequent, staff memebers speak to one another and know very well what they can ask based on what was previously granted to others.

A manager cant make decisions outside of HR policies.

Sounds like a lack of consistent decision making by mgmt to be honest

BonnieSituation

ineedeuro wrote: »

I do love on boards everyone is trying to big themselves up.
Do you think your point is more forceful because you try to make out you are part of a "big multinational"?

Same as person above, it's not a utilities company, it is a "rather large utility company".

The point was being made to a poster who seems to think that they may be pulling a fast one. As they clearly aren't and given their size it's less likely they are. But by all means continue.

Mic 1972

ineedeuro wrote: »

Why would people be constantly making requested for exceptional treatment if as you say they are already aware it isn't company policy? seems to be a bit of a conflict doesn't it?

Plenty of reasons, health, family, etc.
Employees know the policies but once mgnt make an exception for one person, more requests will come

jakiah

Some of your minds are going to be blown when you discover that more modern work practices are *actually* flexible, not just trading one big bunch of rules for another like 'every Tuesday and Wednesday in the office, 9am to 5.30pm'.

mrslancaster

jakiah wrote: »

Some of your minds are going to be blown when you discover that more modern work practices are *actually* flexible, not just trading one big bunch of rules for another like 'every Tuesday and Wednesday in the office, 9am to 5.30pm'.

If everything is so flexible why would companies even need policies? They're to ensure all employess are treated equally and if there's any problem it can be addressed fairly without any bias on the part of managers etc.

Also organisations can't just change employees contracts without agreement or expect employees to provide their 'place of work' in their home. It's crazy & nothing to do with modern work practices.
Mrs OBumble is spot on.

Different situation entirely if it's an independent contractor.

ted1

blindsider wrote: »

When did it get waived? I don't remember seeing that in the legislation...maybe I missed it...

Do you have any links etc to support this?

Ergonomic inspectors are not listed as essential services do they could not do house visits

jakiah

mrslancaster wrote: »

If everything is so flexible why would companies even need policies?

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets. If you have a commitment in the office or on a customer site you are expected to be there (obviously). Otherwise you manage your own time & location.

I dont know how some of you are going to be able to cope tbh.

Mic 1972

jakiah wrote: »

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets. If you have a commitment in the office or on a customer site you are expected to be there (obviously). Otherwise you manage your own time & location.

I dont know how some of you are going to be able to cope tbh.

That sounds like a company policy to me.

With regards to working from abroad, which was the original argument, no Irish company can allow you to work more than 6 months + 1 days outside of Ireland

[Deleted User]

Mic 1972 wrote: »

That sounds like a company policy to me.

With regards to working from abroad, which was the original argument, no Irish company can allow you to work more than 6 months + 1 days outside of Ireland

they can allow you to work abroad if they have payroll presence in said country (though you dont have be on said payroll). We were told definitively by my US based MNC that we can work anywhere that there is a physical presence in country, for as long as we want (which is maybe 50% of EU countries and the UK). We could not work anywhere that there is not an office

But they also made very clear that the individual tax liabilities of being somewhere for more than 6 months are our own to deal with and that the company would not provide advice / support.

Padre_Pio

jakiah wrote: »

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets. If you have a commitment in the office or on a customer site you are expected to be there (obviously). Otherwise you manage your own time & location.

I dont know how some of you are going to be able to cope tbh.

And that's fine. I'd love to see the fine print of this, as I'd imagine there's plenty of caveats.
What happens when your company unilaterally changes this policy?

Reminds me of Virgin's policy that you can take as much time off as you want, provided all your work is done, but whoever actually finished ALL their work. THere's always something else to do.

jakiah

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I'd love to see the fine print of this, as I'd imagine there's plenty of caveats.

/facepalm

Padre_Pio

jakiah wrote: »

/facepalm

Great input. V intelligent.

jakiah wrote: »

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets.

That second part "as long as you are meeting targets" is literally a policy.

Mrs OBumble

jakiah wrote: »

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets. If you have a commitment in the office or on a customer site you are expected to be there (obviously). Otherwise you manage your own time & location.

I dont know how some of you are going to be able to cope tbh.

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

they can allow you to work abroad if they have payroll presence in said country (though you dont have be on said payroll). We were told definitively by my US based MNC that we can work anywhere that there is a physical presence in country, for as long as we want (which is maybe 50% of EU countries and the UK). We could not work anywhere that there is not an office

But they also made very clear that the individual tax liabilities of being somewhere for more than 6 months are our own to deal with and that the company would not provide advice / support.

So there you have a clear policy then.