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Forced to work from home

Padre_Pio

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

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jakiah

Some of your minds are going to be blown when you discover that more modern work practices are *actually* flexible, not just trading one big bunch of rules for another like 'every Tuesday and Wednesday in the office, 9am to 5.30pm'.

Mic 1972

ineedeuro wrote: »

Why would people be constantly making requested for exceptional treatment if as you say they are already aware it isn't company policy? seems to be a bit of a conflict doesn't it?

Plenty of reasons, health, family, etc.
Employees know the policies but once mgnt make an exception for one person, more requests will come

BonnieSituation

ineedeuro wrote: »

I do love on boards everyone is trying to big themselves up.
Do you think your point is more forceful because you try to make out you are part of a "big multinational"?

Same as person above, it's not a utilities company, it is a "rather large utility company".

The point was being made to a poster who seems to think that they may be pulling a fast one. As they clearly aren't and given their size it's less likely they are. But by all means continue.

[Deleted User]

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I worked in people management for many years, requests for exceptional treatment are extremely frequent, staff memebers speak to one another and know very well what they can ask based on what was previously granted to others.

A manager cant make decisions outside of HR policies.

Sounds like a lack of consistent decision making by mgmt to be honest

ineedeuro

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I worked in people management for many years, requests for exceptional treatment are extremely frequent, staff memebers speak to one another and know very well what they can ask based on what was previously granted to others.

A manager cant make decisions outside of HR policies.

Why would people be constantly making requested for exceptional treatment if as you say they are already aware it isn't company policy? seems to be a bit of a conflict doesn't it?

Mic 1972

ineedeuro wrote: »

I do love on boards everyone is trying to big themselves up.
Do you think your point is more forceful because you try to make out you are part of a "big multinational"?

Same as person above, it's not a utilities company, it is a "rather large utility company".

I worked in people management for many years, requests for exceptional treatment are extremely frequent, staff memebers speak to one another and know very well what they can ask based on what was previously granted to others.

A manager cant make decisions outside of HR policies.

ineedeuro

Mic 1972 wrote: »

You don't seem to have much experience with people management and HR, especially in big multinationals
People with special needs as in physical disability are not the same as people who have a need to work from abroad. And even in the case of special needs the company will have a standard policy, not a specially customized one

I do love on boards everyone is trying to big themselves up.
Do you think your point is more forceful because you try to make out you are part of a "big multinational"?

Same as person above, it's not a utilities company, it is a "rather large utility company".

The Student

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You should get onto the HR and finance departments of the rather large utility company I work for and advise them.

It's preposterous that you'd even think that "they'd hope they won't get get caught".

I think they slipped up by telling the local tax organisation as well though if they were trying to hide it.

Utterly bizarre.

Firstly I have no idea who you work for. Secondly if it is a large company then they will no doubt be doing everything correctly. Thirdly small firms are doing this without the correct set up as I am aware of one personally and I doubt they are the only ones doing it. How widespread it is I don't know.

What arrangements do you have for social insurance payments?

BonnieSituation

The Student wrote: »

You are allowed do this for short periods of time. You are allowed do it permanently with the appropriate legal set up etc.

The original poster was looking to do same permanently.

Your organisation may be doing everything correctly or they may not be hoping they don't get caught.

Who do you pay your social insurance contributions to?

You should get onto the HR and finance departments of the rather large utility company I work for and advise them.

It's preposterous that you'd even think that "they'd hope they won't get get caught".

I think they slipped up by telling the local tax organisation as well though if they were trying to hide it.

Utterly bizarre.

Mic 1972

ineedeuro wrote: »

No it’s not. A good manager knows how to deal with and get the best out of everyone. Putting everyone into the same bracket and just ignoring them is a recipe for disaster

If what you said was true then companies wouldn’t be trying to bring in special needs people etc which should be a policy of every company.

Knowing that an employee has a special situation and might need a different approach is what makes a good manager and a good company

You don't seem to have much experience with people management and HR, especially in big multinationals
People with special needs as in physical disability are not the same as people who have a need to work from abroad. And even in the case of special needs the company will have a standard policy, not a specially customized one

The Student

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I am working remotely in Ireland and my place of work is in another jurisdiction.

My employer is aware of this. As are Revenue.

You make it sound like it's some sort of nefarious practice.

It's because of this I get to have a bank holiday day off today.

You are allowed do this for short periods of time. You are allowed do it permanently with the appropriate legal set up etc.

The original poster was looking to do same permanently.

Your organisation may be doing everything correctly or they may not be hoping they don't get caught.

Who do you pay your social insurance contributions to?

floorpie

Mastroianni wrote: »

guys any opinions about the hypothetical return to office by September?

Vaccinations aren't expected to be completed until September and I suppose we should anticipate delays, so personally I couldn't imagine return to office until Oct/Nov. Who knows.

BonnieSituation

The Student wrote: »

The different legal min employment requirements have been highlighted to you already in this thread.

The different income tax, Social insurance payments have also been highlighted to you.

In normal circumstances I actually would help people with these type of queries but you seem to have an issue.

You are either unwilling or unable to check out why working from home in another country is not widely available.

I am therefore stepping away from responding to any of your future posts.

I am working remotely in Ireland and my place of work is in another jurisdiction.

My employer is aware of this. As are Revenue.

You make it sound like it's some sort of nefarious practice.

It's because of this I get to have a bank holiday day off today.

ineedeuro

Mastroianni wrote: »

guys any opinions about the hypothetical return to office by September?

Seems to be a common enough prediction. Not sure if people want to try WFH till after the summer or what.

I know a couple of people working outside of Ireland now are planning on returning to Ireland and back into office for Sept

Mastroianni

guys any opinions about the hypothetical return to office by September?

[Deleted User]

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Forsa is actively seeking an opt out from WFH option for public servants.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can't speak for private sector companies, but my contract / terms and conditions as a civil servant has never, ever, given one specific office location. I am assigned to a department.

I have worked in at least six different departments over the years and my current department has multiple buildings right across Dublin. I can be reassigned to any one of these buildings at any time. There is no "opting out" because it doesn't suit you.

So the "your employer can't just choose to change your location" argument really doesn't hold water, for me.

If a private sector employer lease is up on their premises and they decide to move from one location to another, does that mean they have to renegotiate contracts with every employee first? I highly doubt it.

Distance counts.

https://www.mondaq.com/ireland/employment-litigation-tribunals/101502/relocation-clauses

The bigger question in this scenario is not the geographical distance of the move, but the elimination of the office workplace.

Mrs OBumble

ineedeuro wrote: »

They do is the contract allows for it.

Who has a contract which says "Your place of work is Unit 123 at BallyValley Business Park, or any other company location within a reasonable distance of this, or you may be required to provide a suitable workplace within the Republic of Ireland, at your cost".

Giving people the option to work remotely is fine.

Telling them to work from home if possible, due to a global pandemic, is fine too.

Telling them that from now own they will work mainly remotely and that they must provide a suitable workspace for this is a a fundamental change to terms and conditions of employment. It is totally not fine.

[Deleted User]

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

I can't speak for private sector companies, but my contract / terms and conditions as a civil servant has never, ever, given one specific office location. I am assigned to a department.

I have worked in at least six different departments over the years and my current department has multiple buildings right across Dublin. I can be reassigned to any one of these buildings at any time. There is no "opting out" because it doesn't suit you.

So the "your employer can't just choose to change your location" argument really doesn't hold water, for me.

If a private sector employer lease is up on their premises and they decide to move from one location to another, does that mean they have to renegotiate contracts with every employee first? I highly doubt it.

[Deleted User]

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

I'm pointing out that the folks complaining on here just need to have a chat with their employers. Anyway - have a good one.

[Deleted User]

ineedeuro wrote: »

They do is the contract allows for it.

There are legal limits on the distance to which employers can unilaterally move location, regardless of what is in the contract.

What kind of contract allowed employers to take space in the employee's home free of charge?

ineedeuro

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

They do is the contract allows for it.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is all over the place now. Anyone who wants to work 100% from the office should explain it to their employer. Exceptions can usually be made. If not, find a new job with less onerous working from home conditions.

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

[Deleted User]

This thread is all over the place now. Anyone who wants to work 100% from the office should explain it to their employer. Exceptions can usually be made. If not, find a new job with less onerous working from home conditions.

Stark

I work for a company that employs people throughout Europe. They're all either contractors (effectively self employed and they invoice the company for work) or there's an "employer of record" operating in that company and their legal relationship is with that employer of record. You can't just move to another European country for more than 6 months and maintain your existing contractual relationship with the Irish entity/Irish tax arrangements.

[Deleted User]

ftbman wrote: »

You can claim tax relief and other wfh related costs:
Heating
Electricity
Broadband
Other vouched expenses where they are “wholly, exclusively and necessarily” part of your work

Are you sure about the 'other vouched expenses'? When I went through claiming last year, there was nowhere to claim the costs of my desk and chair. It was just utilities and broadband.

whippet wrote: »

Ah come on - that is some over dramatic interpretation of the last year !!

The vast majority of people work from a laptop and a note book - close the laptop and the office is closed !!! What reminders are you seeing of your work day that you don’t normally see ?

No-one should be working permanently off a laptop screen. You need full size monitors.

whippet wrote: »

If I were inclined to think that my company were getting office space rent free from me - I’d also balance that with the not insignificant amount of money I have saved on my commute - tolls, diesel, wear and tear, after school care etc

Those costs that you're saving were very much YOUR costs when you paid them. You didn't get a pay rise when your childcare went up or when diesel went up.

Don't give your employer credit for savings that are nothing to do with them. They're your savings.

Then start the conversation about rent for the space you're providing...

Mic 1972 wrote: »

By flying under the radar you are exposing the company to the risk of tax evasion, which is why companies are still strict about working from abroad.

Companies can and will check IP address of people working from remote to prevent the risk of employees breaking the 6 months rule

You'd be getting both false positives and false negatives, given the use of VPNs.

[Deleted User]

Mic 1972 wrote: »

When it comes to people management, consistency to polices is key. Exceptions are not the way to go. If many employees express a desire to change a specific policy sure the company will consider that, but exceptions to accommodate one single employee are always problematic because they create a precedent

Precedents are not set because local arrangements are typically made on an individual's circumstances, on a case by case basis. Other employees are not consulted, and typically would not even be aware where such arrangements have been put in place, or why.

It's not part of any written policy, but it is part of their practice. That's my experience across 30 years and multiple departments.

ineedeuro

Mic 1972 wrote: »

When it comes to people management, consistency to polices is key. Exceptions are not the way to go. If many employees express a desire to change a specific policy sure the company will consider that, but exceptions to accommodate one single employee are always problematic because they create a precedent

No it’s not. A good manager knows how to deal with and get the best out of everyone. Putting everyone into the same bracket and just ignoring them is a recipe for disaster

If what you said was true then companies wouldn’t be trying to bring in special needs people etc which should be a policy of every company.

Knowing that an employee has a special situation and might need a different approach is what makes a good manager and a good company

jimmycrackcorm

I really can't understand the objection to wfh. The time wasted in commuting week in and out is something that is difficult to put a price on.

The ability to be able to choose not to have to live close to your work is just exceptional.

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

Policies can be changed.

Eighteen months ago, many companies had policies which only allowed very limited or no working from home.

The pandemic and government restrictions forced companies into looking at WFH in a new light, and as a result many are now in the process of changing their policies.

I still hold that it's a very poor HR who would leave themselves with no discretion to make exceptions (post pandemic restrictions, obviously) where an exception would be in the best interest of both the employee and the company.

Happens all the time where I work. It's called making a "local arrangement". Normally agreed between employee > direct supervisor > head of function and finally HR.

When it comes to people management, consistency to polices is key. Exceptions are not the way to go. If many employees express a desire to change a specific policy sure the company will consider that, but exceptions to accommodate one single employee are always problematic because they create a precedent