Boards' traveller problem

17-04-2021 11:39am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's pretty clear that there's some level of tolerance for some awful stuff at this point. There just seems to be denial of the fact.

I think this is a fair observation,i dont understand the pushback and attempts by mods to trip people up,for pointing out the bloody obvious

nullzero · 17-04-2021 12:21pm

I find that any intolerance is typically well dealt with on this site.

It comes back to reporting posts. Make yourself vocal through the report system.

Boards much like life in general features people and opinions we don't all agree with and there does appear to be a concerted effort from a small number of people to create a space where only their views are tolerated which does a disservice to the platform as a whole..

Again, report posts you find offensive. You'll find the reports are listened to.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-04-2021 12:36pm

anewme wrote: »

Posting photos of someones home and address and laughing at their taste is dickish at best (in my opinion).

Feel free to not read it then. :rolleyes:

But I hadn't seen that thread, so thanks, it's a great thread

Leg End Reject · 17-04-2021 12:50pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Noone has an issue with the pics being shown?

Just that people openly insinuating they are from a travellers house and therefore stuff in the pics must be stolen.

Like lads can say it all they want ,but factually speaking,if people were to broadbrush any other ethnicity/grouping with sterotypes/slurs for lols the posts would be actioned againest.......it seems obvious to me anyway,that this group
is treated different,either let such posting againest all groups(or none)

Comments are made about all the houses posted, and most of them are negative.

By your logic, I could argue it would be discrimination not to comment on traveller's houses. Some of the comments on that house were also posted before the RIP notice, mine included.

I'm sure most of us are aware that our own houses would receive negative comments if posted because we all have different tastes and opinions on what makes a house a home. You can see on the thread that some will love one house, while others hate it.

However, new money, gangland types and travellers all tend to have their own recognisable taste and that is commented on in a lighthearted way. Some may view it as anything but lighthearted, but again that's down to the individual and their mindset.

anewme · 17-04-2021 1:57pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Feel free to not read it then. :rolleyes:

But I hadn't seen that thread, so thanks, it's a great thread

Telling people not to read something is not what giving feedback is about.

nullzero · 17-04-2021 2:02pm

anewme wrote: »

Telling people not to read something is not what giving feedback is about.

Creating a situation where you can have every discussion go your way is not what a site like this is about.

If an opinion is offensive and or wrong it is self evident, countering those opinions is what a Web forum is all about. Remove the opposition and you remove the fun and the site becomes redundant.

17-04-2021 2:19pm

nullzero wrote: »

Creating a situation where you can have every discussion go your way is not what a site like this is about.

If an opinion is offensive and or wrong it is self evident, countering those opinions is what a Web forum is all about. Remove the opposition and you remove the fun and the site becomes redundant.

There is a concerted attempt on this site by a certain cohort to stifle debate of content they find objectionable. Orwell had his finger on the pulse nearly a century ago. The very nature of boards is to champion a diversity of opinion, it is enlightening to observe two opposing positions for a broader worldview. Removing one because it is contrary to a poster's belief system is the antithesis of a democracy and for all intents and purposes embracing a dictatorship. Sporting the Helen Lovejoy garb and starting peppering the feedback thread with thinly veiled "why can't everybody think like me" prattle isn't conducive to constructive debate. The mods by and large are doing an admirable job of keeping the boards ethos alive, and long may a platform of open-mindedness persevere.

17-04-2021 2:21pm

But sure you could say the same about multiple subjects / groups.

Gardai, British, muslim.

All regularly dragged through the mud and half the time in threads that area biting to do with them or not their fault

17-04-2021 2:43pm

anewme wrote: »

Telling people not to read something is not what giving feedback is about.

Telling people what they can post is not what debate is about

anewme · 17-04-2021 2:54pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Telling people what they can post is not what debate is about

No one is telling them what they can post.

They are asking for clarity on what the guidelines are.

This is not a debate thread. It’s a feedback thread.
Telling people not to read threads that are racist is censorship itself and not feedback.

nullzero · 17-04-2021 3:25pm

anewme wrote: »

No one is telling them what they can post.

They are asking for clarity on what the guidelines are.

This is not a debate thread. It’s a feedback thread.
Telling people not to read threads that are racist is censorship itself and not feedback.

Here's the charter from the CA forum ;

"Have an opinion on a less-than-stellar topic? Want a discussion of the great questions of our time? Have a deep thought that's not quite lighthearted enough for After Hours? But not debate-worthy enough for the Politics Forum?

Current Affairs/IMHO is a forum where users discuss these topics, within, of course, the bounds of civil discourse. Wait, wouldn’t that make every discussion on topic? Whoa, hold on a second, we need to sit down; we just blew our own minds.

1.The rules of the forum are simple but absolute.
We have one guiding principle: Don't be a dick.

2.Do not post any material that you know or should know is hateful, abusive, harassing, false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, vulgar, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or illegal.

3.You are free to express your views in a forceful manner provided you remain civil. Hate speech, insults, and purposely inflammatory remarks (i.e., trolling) will not be tolerated. Do not post threats or state or imply that any individual or group is deserving of harm. If we tell you to refrain from behaviour that we regard as uncivil, or that in our view detracts from a productive discussion, do so or face revocation of your posting privileges.

4.We reserve the right to delete any post for any or no reason whatsoever."

Point number 2 clarifies what the guidelines are in relation to what you're discussing here.

The motivation behind this type of thread is to change what the guidelines are into what you and your like minded associates want it to be.

Saying you are simply seeking clarification of the rules is mind boggling, the rules are clear if you care to read them.

17-04-2021 3:39pm

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Comments are made about all the houses posted, and most of them are negative.

By your logic, I could argue it would be discrimination not to comment on traveller's houses. Some of the comments on that house were also posted before the RIP notice, mine included.

I'm sure most of us are aware that our own houses would receive negative comments if posted because we all have different tastes and opinions on what makes a house a home. You can see on the thread that some will love one house, while others hate it.

However, new money, gangland types and travellers all tend to have their own recognisable taste and that is commented on in a lighthearted way. Some may view it as anything but lighthearted, but again that's down to the individual and their mindset.

By all means comment on the travellers houses and specualte as regards if stuff was stolen

But if one was to comment upon a chinese person house and speculate to the well beings/cookability of their pets or a muslim and specualte if they had suicide vests in the wardrobes etc,yous get the idea

....such wide swiped sterotypes wouldnt be allowed pass as banter/lighthearted.....i do like a dark joke,that cuts to the bone,but if its not allowed for one group,but is for another,deosnt seem fair tbh

Leg End Reject · 17-04-2021 3:49pm

I think there was one "off the back of a lorry" comment made in jest.

There are similar comments made about other demographics, so it's untrue to claim travellers are singled out.

17-04-2021 5:03pm

anewme wrote: »

No one is telling them what they can post.

They are asking for clarity on what the guidelines are.

This is not a debate thread. It’s a feedback thread.
Telling people not to read threads that are racist is censorship itself and not feedback.

You and a few others have spent the week bumping two threads in feedback with the consistent message that only the outcome you have already decided to be correct will be acceptable.

You have made it abundantly clear that you will decide what is racist/sexist and what is not, you have not acknowledged that it is a matter of context and perspective in many instances.

You have declined to answer what makes your decision on such matters the prevailing one on the topic- i should know ive challenged you a few times on it without any relevant response.

And if telling people not to read threads they dont like is censorship, lobbying mods to have every post subjected to your own preferences and your preferences alone is most certainly censorship.

Its a feedback thread, sure. But free, as far as i know, for all site users who qualify to post in it to give their opinion, and free for the mods to tell you your opinion is noted but won't be taken as instruction.

Buddy Bubs · 17-04-2021 5:15pm

Where does the right to have an opinion get superceded by the obligation not to upset people? Travelers are not popular, I'll straight out say that I despise them and I very much feel I have a right to say that. Pretty much 100% of people I know feel the same. That's just the way it is. A very small minority of settled people are fond of travelers, and will defend them.
The real issue at hand here is boards has to protect itself from litigation.

Buddy Bubs · 17-04-2021 5:41pm

athlone573 wrote: »

You wouldn't get away with saying you despise blacks or Chinese though which is kind of the point people are making.

I don't actually despise either of those groups, but what if I did? Who has the right to tell me who I am and who I amn't allowed to dislike?
Some people don't like Irish and I'm perfectly fine with that.

athlone573 · 17-04-2021 5:42pm

<snip>

Tom Mann Centuria · 17-04-2021 5:46pm

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

I don't actually despise either of those groups, but what if I did? Who has the right to tell me who I am and who I amn't allowed to dislike?
Some people don't like Irish and I'm perfectly fine with that.

There's a term for people who don't like entire races of people, and usually unless you're on stormfront or voat of yore, those views aren't allowed on any internet platform or polite conversation. No one's allowed to tell you want you want to believe, lots of people are allowed to tell you where you can, or should say it.

Buddy Bubs · 17-04-2021 5:56pm

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

There's a term for people who don't like entire races of people, and usually unless you're on stormfront or voat of yore, those views aren't allowed on any internet platform or polite conversation. No one's allowed to tell you want you want to believe, lots of people are allowed to tell you where you can, or should say it.

OK, that makes sense. Someone owns this platform so makes the rules, I'm OK with that actually.

As for not liking entire races or groups of people, it's only travelers for me. Firmly believe there isn't a good egg among them

dulpit · 17-04-2021 6:45pm

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

That was me. I'll get banned if I point out the reasons. But you can guess.

This lad here. Big problem on boards. Nobody is looking to control what you think, if you're a bigot, off with you.

The issue is that you feel its okay on boards to post this rubbish and be fairly confident that you'll see no major impact. And also know full well that if you repeated what you posted but replaced traveller with black person, Asian person, women, lgbt person, etc the banhammer would be swift.

Somebody posted the charter of current affairs earlier and said I started this thread to change the charter. I don't want to, the charter on its own is correct. The first point is simple - don't be a dick. The issue is that for some posters and some areas, this is ignored when it comes to travellers.

Juet to be clear again, I don't necessarily think this is an issue with mods, but I do question if there should be standardised guidelines for how certain actions are dealt with by mods, regardless of the forum..

Overheal · 17-04-2021 7:17pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

It’s interesting to see how people’s perspectives differ and can change over time. I remember a thread from a good while back where you were seriously intolerant of travellers, and traveller behaviour.

That should be progress to celebrate then.

I used to used the word “retarded” a lot back in the day too. Then there was a push by someone similar to Dulpit, asking the bigger question in feedback: “why are we okay with this” and in short order the phrase pretty much evaporated from the site lexicon with more conscientiousness about who that term hurt.

Trying to invalidate progress now because of lack of progress before hardly seems like anything less than base deflection.

Overheal · 17-04-2021 7:23pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You and a few others have spent the week bumping two threads in feedback with the consistent message that only the outcome you have already decided to be correct will be acceptable.

You have made it abundantly clear that you will decide what is racist/sexist and what is not, you have not acknowledged that it is a matter of context and perspective in many instances.

You have declined to answer what makes your decision on such matters the prevailing one on the topic- i should know ive challenged you a few times on it without any relevant response.

And if telling people not to read threads they dont like is censorship, lobbying mods to have every post subjected to your own preferences and your preferences alone is most certainly censorship.

Its a feedback thread, sure. But free, as far as i know, for all site users who qualify to post in it to give their opinion, and free for the mods to tell you your opinion is noted but won't be taken as instruction.

nullzero wrote: »

I find that any intolerance is typically well dealt with on this site.

It comes back to reporting posts. Make yourself vocal through the report system.

Boards much like life in general features people and opinions we don't all agree with and there does appear to be a concerted effort from a small number of people to create a space where only their views are tolerated which does a disservice to the platform as a whole..

Again, report posts you find offensive. You'll find the reports are listened to.

Two competing attitudes against the feedback:

‘Just report it and make yourself heard.’ That’s being done here. And

‘How dare you keep making yourself heard, “bumping” your feedback :mad:’

Madness.

Overheal · 17-04-2021 7:24pm

nullzero wrote: »

The difference is that people are saying they despise travellers because of the actions of travellers, not their ethnicity.

That’s a weak cop out. Just like people hate Muslims “because of the actions of Muslims” - nobody buys that is a cover for racism. Neither do you surely.

anewme · 17-04-2021 7:29pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

They DON’T tolerate it. When it’s reported it’s dealt with.
But you have asked for a report on how YOUR reported posts are handled. That’s an even bigger timesink than Reggie Mc ReRegerson, re-regger at large.

That is not what I asked for at all. So stop misrepresenting what I asked.

I asked Beasty if there was a way to view a copy of your reported posts, ie on your own profile.

Its nothing to do with creating work for anyone - its a systems question - same as you can see your Inbox and Outbox and what is there.

Overheal · 17-04-2021 7:36pm

anewme wrote: »

That is not what I asked for at all.

I asked Beasty if there was a way to view your reported posts, ie on your own profile.

Its a system question - same as you can see your Inbox and Outbox.

No. Reported post function is built into the message board system by itself being a closed access forum only mods see. The first report becomes a new script generated thread. Subsequent reports on the same post become replies to that thread. Having access to converse privately with mods in a similar way are technically possible and used for other functions on site, but the problem is unlike those cases, those threads wouldn’t just be you+mods, it’s you+mods+anyone else who reported it. By the nature of the system it would be counterproductive for users to be able to read each other’s reports in that way. The infeasible alternative is make a new thread for each report of a single post but that would be unmanageable in regard to needing as a mod to easily collate all reports on a single post. To engineer a different solution would be homebrew and time and resource consuming for the development team especially given how custom boards’ snapshot of vBulletin is - with no guarantee the new method would work for technical or community reasons.

knucklehead6 · 17-04-2021 7:46pm

anewme wrote: »

That is not what I asked for at all. So stop misrepresenting what I asked.

I asked Beasty if there was a way to view a copy of your reported posts, ie on your own profile.

Its nothing to do with creating work for anyone - its a systems question - same as you can see your Inbox and Outbox and what is there.

What use is seeing a copy of the posts you report?

Overheal · 17-04-2021 7:47pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

What use is seeing a copy of the posts you report?

To see their status, if they were actioned if the report was seen but ignored etc.

Signore Fancy Pants · 17-04-2021 7:48pm

I think some people here are too sensitive and overreacting to "isms" due to their own agenda.

While I am not overtly racist, I'm sure some of my views, based on my own experiences would be classed as racist from sensitive people who have no comprehension of context.

I have had maybe 30-40 known interactions with the travelling community in my life. I can safely say that two interactions have been normal, the rest were negative and that's not my fault.

Based on my own experiences, I can say that the travelling community are overall thieves, liars and vandals. For this, I should not be labelled as a racist.

Yes, settled people are also thieves, liars and vandals but my own overall experience with settled people does not reflect this.

The house thread in AH is also bananas. If a house decor is knowingly consistent with "traveller-chic", where is the racism? It's a legitimate comparison. While it might not reflect ALL travellers, if something looks like someting...then it looks like something.

Maybe these people shouting "isms" would be more comfortable with terminology and qualifications such as, "in my experience", or "some xxx".

Are there blatant instances of actual "isms" on the site? Damn right there is but it isnt all the same. Some comments are based on experience and context.....not hatred

anewme · 17-04-2021 7:48pm

Overheal wrote: »

No. Reported post function is built into the message board system by itself being a closed access forum only mods see. The first report becomes a new script generated thread. Subsequent reports on the same post become replies to that thread. Having access to converse privately with mods in a similar way are technically possible and used for other functions on site, but the problem is unlike those cases, those threads wouldn’t just be you+mods, it’s you+mods+anyone else who reported it. By the nature of the system it would be counterproductive for users to be able to read each other’s reports in that way. The infeasible alternative is make a new thread for each report of a single post but that would be unmanageable in regard to needing as a mod to easily collate all reports on a single post. To engineer a different solution would be homebrew and time and resource consuming for the development team especially given how custom boards’ snapshot of vBulletin is - with no guarantee the new method would work for technical or community reasons.

Thanks for the clarification on the systems - it was more a personal question for your own record. Sometimes you might think you reported a post when you didn't or it did not go through fully for whatever reason.

I supposed it's more as not to say Mod did not act, but no one actually reported the post. Its easy to read one thread and think, why are Mods not acting, here, when it is a bigger picture overall.

Question was based on the back of Beasty's comment yesterday - there are thousands of posts daily; maybe not something I'd considered fully.

Overheal · 17-04-2021 7:50pm

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

I think some people here are too sensitive and overreacting to "isms" due to their own agenda.

While I am not overtly racist, I'm sure some of my views, based on my own experiences would be classed as racist from sensitive people who have no comprehension of context.

I have had maybe 30-40 known interactions with the travelling community in my life. I can safely say that two interactions have been normal, the rest were negative and that's not my fault.

Based on my own experiences, I can say that the travelling community are overall thieves, liars and vandals. For this, I should not be labelled as a racist.

Yes, settled people are also thieves, liars and vandals but my own overall experience with settled people does not reflect this.

The house thread in AH is also bananas. If a house decor is knowingly consistent with "traveller-chic", where is the racism? It's a legitimate comparison. While it might not reflect ALL travellers, if something looks like someting...then it looks like something.

Maybe these people shouting "isms" would be more comfortable with terminology and qualifications such as, "in my experience", or "some xxx".

Are there blatant instances of actual "isms" on the site? Damn right there is but it isnt all the same. Some comments are based on experience and context.....not hatred

40 experiences and you get to say an entire ethnic group are “overall thieves liars and vandals?”

No sorry that’s discrimination.

I’ve met more than 40 stupid Irish people and I don’t get to say overall the Irish are a retarded bunch. And if I really did I think you’d be one in line to be upset I had.

anewme · 17-04-2021 7:54pm

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

I think some people here are too sensitive and overreacting to "isms" due to their own agenda.

While I am not overtly racist, I'm sure some of my views, based on my own experiences would be classed as racist from sensitive people who have no comprehension of context.

I have had maybe 30-40 known interactions with the travelling community in my life. I can safely say that two interactions have been normal, the rest were negative and that's not my fault.

Based on my own experiences, I can say that the travelling community are overall thieves, liars and vandals. For this, I should not be labelled as a racist.

Yes, settled people are also thieves, liars and vandals but my own overall experience with settled people does not reflect this.

The house thread in AH is also bananas. If a house decor is knowingly consistent with "traveller-chic", where is the racism? It's a legitimate comparison. While it might not reflect ALL travellers, if something looks like someting...then it looks like something.

Maybe these people shouting "isms" would be more comfortable with terminology and qualifications such as, "in my experience", or "some xxx".

Are there blatant instances of actual "isms" on the site? Damn right there is but it isnt all the same. Some comments are based on experience and context.....not hatred

Showing a photo of a house with no other information about the property and reaching straight to the conclusion from nothing other than a photo that the resident must be a traveller and a thief is fairly poor form though, would you not say?

Would you say that breaches the basic don't be a dick charter?

If someone put a photo up of your house number and street, and photos of the interior and inferred you were a thief, would you see anything lighthearted in it?

Buddy Bubs · 17-04-2021 7:56pm

dulpit wrote: »

This lad here. Big problem on boards. Nobody is looking to control what you think, if you're a bigot, off with you.

The issue is that you feel its okay on boards to post this rubbish and be fairly confident that you'll see no major impact. And also know full well that if you repeated what you posted but replaced traveller with black person, Asian person, women, lgbt person, etc the banhammer would be swift.

Somebody posted the charter of current affairs earlier and said I started this thread to change the charter. I don't want to, the charter on its own is correct. The first point is simple - don't be a dick. The issue is that for some posters and some areas, this is ignored when it comes to travellers.

Juet to be clear again, I don't necessarily think this is an issue with mods, but I do question if there should be standardised guidelines for how certain actions are dealt with by mods, regardless of the forum..

But as far as I can tell, Asians, blacks, women, gays don't have the negative effect on irish society that travelers have. I'm engaged to a woman. I work with a gay. My neighbours are black. One of my suppliers in work is Chinese. No problem with any of them.

If a man came from rank outsider to coming second in the presidential election of Ireland because he spoke out against travelers and their behaviour on national TV, I'm not going to be shy about it on an anonymous forum. I know the vast majority of people agree with me too so I'm not in a minority stance or anything even remotely close to it. A poll if filled out on boards or indeed anywhere about what people think about travelers it would be overwhelmingly negative about travelers. The garda did one actually it was published in newspapers.

If boards allows discussion on travelers, it's going to lead to negative comments. Every single time.
Only solution to that is to make them a taboo subject and forbidden to discuss.

anewme · 17-04-2021 7:57pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

What use is seeing a copy of the posts you report?

I've clarified what I was asking Beasty.

Not least of all to remember if you did actually report it and if it went (ie as a sent item)

Same as your outbox shows you did send the email you meant to send. A personal record.

Poster has clarified, so thanks to them for doing that.

EmmetSpiceland · 17-04-2021 8:04pm

nullzero wrote: »

Here's the charter from the CA forum ;

2.Do not post any material that you know or should know is hateful, abusive, harassing, false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, vulgar, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or illegal.

This point above, point 2, really should be amended to just ‘Do not post any material that you know or should know is abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, profane (within reason), threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or illegal.’

Without these amendments, removing hateful, false, and inaccurate, the “rule” is, clearly, not being enforced. There’s a lot of hate in there.

Just a suggestion.

banie01 · 17-04-2021 8:05pm

Over the Christmas and New year period any discussion of Rathkeale and the heightened Covid rate Vs the national average was shut down on the Limerick forum multiple times.

The mention of it, of the travel, the actions and the flouting of Covid regulations in Limerick and Longford that shared a common demographic was deemed racist.

It wasn't, there are some who will demean travellers be dint of the fact they are travellers.
That wasn't the issue at play on the threads I'm mentioning here.
Rather than fall into the trap of racism by dint of their ethnic status, it's actually an issue with a large proportion of that demographic participating in actions that drove huge infection rates.

If I was to opine that a large majority of the people on the Inisowen peninsula are prone to risky driving leading to a high accident rate and a skewed death rate? Is that racist?
How about we review the actions that lead to Inisowen and Strabane being the highest infected area on the Island for a time?
Lockdown flouting, obviously criminal breaches driving Covid transmission?

I can criticize that area of Ireland and its residents for their selfish and often criminal stupidity during Covid.
But! If the same comments are made regarding travellers and similar issues in Rathkeale and Longford?
Its racist?

The perpetually outraged among us are stifling debate, and weaponising words.
Language does have power, words matter.
Address them, confront them and diminish naysayers.
Don't silence them because you don't like their mindset.
Work to change it.

JeffKenna · 17-04-2021 8:05pm

This country has a serious problem that needs to be called out. It's not right that elderly people are locking their door every night and living in fear of travellers breaking in and attacking them. 10 miles from me two travellers broke into an elderly farmer who lived by himself and killed him. It's crazy what's happening with any debate on this shut down on discrimination grounds.

Eggs For Dinner · 17-04-2021 8:07pm

Overheal wrote: »

40 experiences and you get to say an entire ethnic group are “overall thieves liars and vandals?”

No sorry that’s discrimination.

I’ve met more than 40 stupid Irish people and I don’t get to say overall the Irish are a retarded bunch. And if I really did I think you’d be one in line to be upset I had.

Reverse your argument. I'm sure you have had many positive interactions with settled people, would you have had as many with travellers? I'd love to hear them, or is your opinion based on an academic viewpoint?

Overheal · 17-04-2021 8:10pm

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Reverse your argument. I'm sure you have had many positive interactions with settled people, would you have had as many with travellers? I'd love to hear them, or is your opinion based on an academic viewpoint?

You seem to misunderstand entirely. Judging any group as a whole based on your own anecdotal experience is fallible logic. Whether you have a negatively discriminatory view of them or a positive one. All the great positive experiences of Irish doesn’t mean that there aren’t thieves, vandals, rapists, etc. who are not Irish origin.

Signore Fancy Pants · 17-04-2021 8:22pm

Overheal wrote: »

40 experiences and you get to say an entire ethnic group are “overall thieves liars and vandals?”

No sorry that’s discrimination.

I’ve met more than 40 stupid Irish people and I don’t get to say overall the Irish are a retarded bunch. And if I really did I think you’d be one in line to be upset I had.

Here we have displayed what I have stated...sensitive posters not acknowledging context despite fully on show.

Not once did I describe the "entire ethic group". I described those who I have interacted with. Big difference there Chief...but that doesn't fit your agenda.

Now, I see you missed where I have explained my experience. That is where my opinion comes from.

Common sense tells me that ALL travellers are not thieves, liars and vandals. I'm sure that can be considered as fact.

My experience tells me the known travellers I have dealt with are thieves, liars and vandals. I am quite entitled to express my rational opinion based on my actual experiences, without being labelled as racist nor being accused of discrimination.

Also, your retort of "40 Irish people" is not an apt comparison, but you know that.

You comparison states that you have met "more than 40 stupid Irish people" but you have met countless "non stupid" Irish people. Its not at all the same thing and tbh, I thought you were brighter than that.

Edit: Actually, your post is not the same in the least. I describe a majority, while you describe a minority. I think anyone would find them polar opposites.

Silly Gilly · 17-04-2021 8:26pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In fairness, there's a fair few posters that are still active on the site that regularly post atrocious and nasty views. They get disciplined but continue to do so. It's as if they continue to get in trouble but somehow avoid an absolute ban. Eg I can think of a poster who called for refugees on boats to be gunned down. They got disciplined and continue to get away with pretty dodgy posts including on travellers.

It's pretty clear that there's some level of tolerance for some awful stuff at this point. There just seems to be denial of the fact.

This is it. They have allowed a cohort of degenerates to fester and take hold on the site. It has become an absolute embarassment. They are now unironically posting their hate speech in this thread.

I think it's time to face the realisation that nothing is ever going to change here. The vast majority have given up on trying to give feedback. The site is aimlessly meandering along until whoever is paying the bills comes to the conclusion that it is more trouble than it's worth.

The best thing to do is stop posting, close your account and help to hasten the site's demise.

17-04-2021 8:30pm

Overheal wrote: »

You seem to misunderstand entirely. Judging any group as a whole based on your own anecdotal experience is fallible logic. Whether you have a negatively discriminatory view of them or a positive one. All the great positive experiences of Irish doesn’t mean that there aren’t thieves, vandals, rapists, etc. who are not Irish origin.

The idea that you can’t generalise about a group is false. It might be wrong to generalise about an individual but groups can be generalised about. In fact both left and right generalise about travellers (high unemployment) the difference is where blame is apportioned.

Overheal · 17-04-2021 8:53pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The idea that you can’t generalise about a group is false. It might be wrong to generalise about an individual but groups can be generalised about. In fact both left and right generalise about travellers (high unemployment) the difference is where blame is apportioned.

Clearly there’s a difference between quantifying the rate of traveler unemployment and categorizing travelers as thieves, vandals, etc.

We aren’t quantifying the crime rate we’re sharing anecdotes and justifying why it’s okay to hate the travelers as a result.

17-04-2021 8:54pm

Overheal wrote: »

40 experiences and you get to say an entire ethnic group are “overall thieves liars and vandals?”

No sorry that’s discrimination.

I’ve met more than 40 stupid Irish people and I don’t get to say overall the Irish are a retarded bunch. And if I really did I think you’d be one in line to be upset I had.

Im glad you learned not to use that term
......five posts ago.....

furthermore, your dismissal of my post above was trite and i dont accept it reflected the points made, tbh. Thanks anyway

osarusan · 17-04-2021 9:06pm

nullzero wrote: »

We have one guiding principle: Don't be a dick.

And yet the forum is full of them.

nullzero · 17-04-2021 9:11pm

Overheal wrote: »

That’s a weak cop out. Just like people hate Muslims “because of the actions of Muslims” - nobody buys that is a cover for racism. Neither do you surely.

Poor comparison. Reach for the emotive language again that should win the argument.

As an example, I hate skangers (scumbags in case you're not up to speed with all Irish colloquialisms). Groups of scumbags causing trouble, treating the rest of society with contempt, never have jobs, selling drugs, in and out of prison, you know the type.

If I see a group of young fellas in town, grey Tracksuit bottoms, Nike Air max with no socks, hands down their trousers, fake Canada Goose jackets and blue baseball caps, I'm making a call in my head about them based on past experiences. They are typically, like me 99.9% the same as travellers, we're all Irish but I have experience of the behaviour of these groups and I'm wary of them.

What happens in 50 or 100 years time where dole scrounging scumbags decide they are a separate ethnic minority in this country? Do we have to tip toe around them in case we're being insensitive to them?

You will find travellers who behave like normal people (and yes they do exist), who treat others with respect are in turn treated with respect.

This reductionist notion you have where you put all the groups of people you label in your mind as "oppressed" into a box away from the rest of the world puzzles me.

Eggs For Dinner · 17-04-2021 9:33pm

Overheal wrote: »

You seem to misunderstand entirely. Judging any group as a whole based on your own anecdotal experience is fallible logic. Whether you have a negatively discriminatory view of them or a positive one. All the great positive experiences of Irish doesn’t mean that there aren’t thieves, vandals, rapists, etc. who are not Irish origin.

Why do you assume my experiences with travellers is anecdotal? I'd bet my pension you've never had a direct contract with travellers. I've had nearly 60 years of interaction with them, some everyday harmless stuff, more often than not its been horrendous. . My opinion won't change and I can live comfortably with that.

KyussB · 17-04-2021 10:11pm

I don't like the whole concept of hate speech etc., given how quickly and easily it is expanded and used to limit valid speech - so I don't think specific rules for this on Boards are a good idea - but I do think mods should have enough leeway to apply social pressure (without harsh mod action or bans, but perhaps thread bans in bad cases) which heavily dissuades making ignorant generalizations about travellers.

A lot of people have had bad experiences with travellers. I've had bad experiences, and have generalized about travellers myself before due to such experiences.

The reason it's harmful to generalize about travellers, even if you feel it is the majority - is because this becomes self-perpetuating: The more prevalent these attitudes towards travellers are, the more that travellers who are genuinely ok are discriminated against along with the rest of their community, and the more they fall into the deprivation and tropes which cause people to view the wider traveller community badly - keeping that cycle going.

It's a political/economic problem really. If some people become unemployable in the private sector, due to unequal/disadvantaged upbringing and/or due to discrimination against their community - hell, even if a criminal history makes them unemployable in the private sector - then it's societies choice to allow these people to remain unemployed. That's not just a problem with the traveller community, it's a problem with any/all groups/people who end up involuntarily unemployed.

You get two general camps of people then:
1: The 'personal responsibility' crowd, who lump all of the problems travellers face onto them individually or onto their community - therefore 'fuck them', no need to do anything about it, their own fault etc. - these people are a problem, they are a reason to dissuade (but not ban) the harmful generalizations against travellers.

2: The people who recognize it's a complex problem of deprivation/discrimination. Few would go as far as me, in saying it's societies choice to leave travellers unemployed, though.

dulpit · 17-04-2021 10:30pm

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Why do you assume my experiences with travellers is anecdotal?

Because that's the definition of anecdotal?

18-04-2021 7:28am

<snip>

Pelvis Parsley · 18-04-2021 11:15am

Anyone hand wringing on behalf of a dead traveller and the “labelling” of him should probably look him up before they defend him too strenuously.

No doubt he was another of the minority that make the majority look bad.

These particular stereotypes exist for a reason.