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Boards' traveller problem

dulpit

Something has been annoying me more and more over the last few months regarding boards. It seems that across a wider and wider portion of the site, people feel free to make sweeping anti traveller stereotypes with no real repercussions. AH and Current affairs forums have them all the time, and the post would need to be pretty egregious to have some sort of warning applied.

What's worse is that it's now across the site. I've seen comments in places like the radio forum, and today there was a thread about somebody who witnessed a car hit another car and drive away, it took maybe 5 posts for somebody to suggest it was travellers.

Why is this tolerated? I can understand the moderators can only do so much, but I still think its not being called out for what it is, racism/bigotry. If you replaced traveller with any other community/race it would attract site bans all the time, but apparently travellers are still largely fair game here.

This has been creeping across the site over the last few years and it's making the site less enjoyable to use. I have no idea what can be done about it, but it would be interesting to see if the mods and/or boards itself have any sort of insights here?

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Cookie_Monster

It's just a reflection of reality. Traveller society has no positive aspects and people are simply sick to death of having to deal with it. Education, crime, health, employment, poverty etc statistics will all back up the unrelenting negative aspects of the 'culture'. If it was any other group it would simply not be tolerated by the state but they've somehow managed to gain an extremely privileged position that is totally undeserved.

I for one don't think many of those stereotypes are actually incorrect. I'd find it hard to believe the majority of people don't think the same, and it's not exactly unfounded, all the statistics back them up. You cannot simply ignore the reality and pretend it's a positive, beneficial, socially responsible part of Irish society that can happily be left as is.

[Deleted User]

Theres a big difference in statements about an individual traveller based on nothing more than knowledge of their being a traveller, and statements posters feel reflects their actual long experience with "travellers" as a group with distinct group behaviours

Admittedly its a tough line to manage but treating the latter as a forbidden expression isn't going to do any good when the majority of people will feel that its telling them they cannot say what they see or have seen themselves.

"You cant make generalisations about travellers as a distinct group" would either have to be a total ban on generalisations or a case of very special treatment for travellers, who are after a ll a distinct group with quite observable distinct group behaviours and issues.

I dont see you making a case for banning generalisations on a message board, so is it the latter you are looking for?

anewme

The thread in After Hours entitled Who Lives in a House Like This is a prime example of this.

2 Recent Examples from that thread include:

(a) A link to a house for sale including the full address. The thread proceeded to take swipes at the home. Then someone posted the RIP link to the owner. This was reported and was swiftly actioned by Moderators (RIP link). However all comments remained. Despite being aware that there was an RIP link, a number of posters continued to mock the home and its contents.

(b) A link to a home for sale on Daft.ie. Full House number and Address published. Numerous insinuations that this was a travellers house, including references to piebalds, caravans, boss, the childer etc. There was also an allegation that property in the house was there because either (a) someone else was missing theirs, or (b) it fell off the back of a lorry.

osarusan

The only good thing about the traveller threads is that they seem to get closer mod/admin scrutiny than other threads and thus the obnoxious dicks who get away with obnoxious dickish posting elsewhere get modded on these threads.

Baggly

dulpit wrote: »

Something has been annoying me more and more over the last few months regarding boards. It seems that across a wider and wider portion of the site, people feel free to make sweeping anti traveller stereotypes with no real repercussions. AH and Current affairs forums have them all the time, and the post would need to be pretty egregious to have some sort of warning applied.

What's worse is that it's now across the site. I've seen comments in places like the radio forum, and today there was a thread about somebody who witnessed a car hit another car and drive away, it took maybe 5 posts for somebody to suggest it was travellers.

Why is this tolerated? I can understand the moderators can only do so much, but I still think its not being called out for what it is, racism/bigotry. If you replaced traveller with any other community/race it would attract site bans all the time, but apparently travellers are still largely fair game here.

This has been creeping across the site over the last few years and it's making the site less enjoyable to use. I have no idea what can be done about it, but it would be interesting to see if the mods and/or boards itself have any sort of insights here?

Can you provide us with some examples of unactioned posts that are an issue for you?

Overheal

Baggly wrote: »

Can you provide us with some examples of unactioned posts that are an issue for you?

To be fair, between the ten hours time of the OP and the time of your question, you did a sweep through the traveler thread in CA. I think it would be fairer to just state that had been done, rather than set up the OP with a question like that, as if to make them look a fool for having brought up the observation.

listermint

Overheal wrote: »

To be fair, between the ten hours time of the OP and the time of your question, you did a sweep through the traveler thread in CA. I think it would be fairer to just state that had been done, rather than set up the OP with a question like that, as if to make them look a fool for having brought up the observation.

You going to pay moderators to be on the site 24/7.

Tbf.

Overheal

listermint wrote: »

You going to pay moderators to be on the site 24/7.

Tbf.

Huh?

Nothing I said relates to that. Person A says "hey there's a mess in here, B [mods, general]" - some time later, B cleans up the mess, goes back to Person A "Hey, what mess are you talking about?" That's a bit condescending, no?

listermint

Overheal wrote: »

Huh?

Nothing I said relates to that. Person A says "hey there's a mess in here, B [mods, general]" - some time later, B cleans up the mess, goes back to Person A "Hey, what mess are you talking about?" That's a bit condescending, no?

Text being a great communicator (not) ,The mod could have been looking for examples for further correction.

Baggly

Overheal wrote: »

To be fair, between the ten hours time of the OP and the time of your question, you did a sweep through the traveler thread in CA. I think it would be fairer to just state that had been done, rather than set up the OP with a question like that, as if to make them look a fool for having brought up the observation.

I want to see if there are others that are objectionable, beyond what I saw in that one thread. The OP mentions a consistent issue not just in that thread.

Thanks for the tip overheal, but I'm OK in having a conversation with another poster, just as I'm sure they are OK speaking for themselves.

Overheal

Baggly wrote: »

I want to see if there are others that are objectionable, beyond what I saw in that one thread. The OP mentions a consistent issue not just in that thread.

Thanks for the tip overheal, but I'm OK in having a conversation with another poster, just as I'm sure they are OK speaking for themselves.

The message here is clearly, don't speak truth to power, butt out in a public forum for site feedback. Have I got that right? I take exception when authority figures get defensive about valid criticism. Your second effort in this thread to shut down a user. Surely just as you are OK with having a conversation with someone else, you can manage critique about it too.

It's not that I don't appreciate your moderation in that thread or taking those actions but the behavior here comes off as trying to trip up people for trying to call attention to it. You didn't ask, 'are there any more' you asked are there any, as if to suggest to the OP and to us observers that you are oblivious to the nature of the problem, since you haven't volunteered to say on here that you've both seen and actioned it since the thread was made. That's all, I found your question on this thread to be incongruent with your actions I observed off this thread.

Baggly

I haven't attempted to shut any user down. I asked for examples because when trying to take feedback on board, concrete examples are useful.

I clarified your misinterpretation of my post and advised you that I'd be much happier discussing my post directed to the OP with the OP. How exactly did I shut anyone down?

You have extrapolated a context that isn't there tbh.

BingCrosbee

Admin: Not eligible to post in feedback.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus. If woke Americans spent as much time speaking truth to American power there might be fewer children starving in Yemen, no slave markets in Libya, and the bombs might stop falling in the Middle East.

With all due respect, I don't see what any of that remark has to do with the topic or with what I said at all. I did not attack Baggly's personal character or background or anything, I criticized certain speech and actions in Moderator Capacity as they played out, re: optics, and how I felt the way it played out was not on brand. It hardly seems proportional to make such digs at me in his defense - or more basely to simply take what you probably see as advantageous swipes at me.

Overheal

Baggly wrote: »

I haven't attempted to shut any user down. I asked for examples because when trying to take feedback on board, concrete examples are useful.

I clarified your misinterpretation of my post and advised you that I'd be much happier discussing my post directed to the OP with the OP. How exactly did I shut anyone down?

You have extrapolated a context that isn't there tbh.

I certainly don't wish to think you would attempt to do so deliberately and I'm not trying to accuse you of that - but I will acknowledge I am being very cynical.

I am only calling out what I argued, earlier already, came off as condescending armed with the knowledge you had in the between time of OP and response, actioned a lot of that crap (And thank you). And I absolutely understand your clarification, I hope you understood mine.

I don't think it was an extrapolation on my part though, I think it is, mundanely, a different perspective to yours. Because the way I saw the answer to your question getting ready to play out is, 'hey, I can't actually find any recent examples that aren't action, weird' which, in the context of the thread, would have belittled IMO the effort of the OP to raise the Feedback issue, rather than thanking them for making that effort, in the way I have already Person A-B analogized. I just think it would have been more efficient and on brand to say 'Got it, we just took care of a bunch, did we miss anything else?' I think we've cleared the air now though I hope Baggly. You're a volunteer yes, this isn't a write-up or professional reprimand or anything it's just - feedback.

[Deleted User]

dulpit wrote: »

What's worse is that it's now across the site. I've seen comments in places like the radio forum, and today there was a thread about somebody who witnessed a car hit another car and drive away, it took maybe 5 posts for somebody to suggest it was travellers.

For the record, I completely agree with you. I haven't seen any reported post like this in the Radio Forum, but if you report that particular post, it will be actioned, based on that description.

Reporting posts doesn't just bring something to mods' attentio, it also sends out a message that what you're seeing is not acceptable. I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but sometimes when a post is borderline you think "Well maybe I am the one being too sensitive".

Often in such cases I'll check for a report, and if there is none, sometimes nothing will be done. So please do report.

anewme

I did report the posts in the house photos thread about insinuating that the home was a travellers and that the contents fell off the back if a truck, but it's still there.

dulpit

And now I see there's a thread about "hate crime nonsense" in current affairs.

The reason I raised this wasn't so much about the moderations, the mods will do what they can when it's raised.

But there is a general tolerance by a cohort of boards users (could be a majority, I don't know) to any traveller bashing, it's just accepted. It's an awful shame really, but I don't know what can be done.

It would be good if more proactive work could be done, but I don't know what that could possibly look like.

knucklehead6

dulpit wrote: »

And now I see there's a thread about "hate crime nonsense" in current affairs.

The reason I raised this wasn't so much about the moderations, the mods will do what they can when it's raised.

But there is a general tolerance by a cohort of boards users (could be a majority, I don't know) to any traveller bashing, it's just accepted. It's an awful shame really, but I don't know what can be done.

It would be good if more proactive work could be done, but I don't know what that could possibly look like.

The only way i can see any proactive actions working is preapproval of any posts. And that's ridiculous request

Beasty

dulpit wrote: »

Why is this tolerated? I can understand the moderators can only do so much, but I still think its not being called out for what it is, racism/bigotry. If you replaced traveller with any other community/race it would attract site bans all the time, but apparently travellers are still largely fair game here.

dulpit wrote: »

It would be good if more proactive work could be done, but I don't know what that could possibly look like.

We simply cannot review every post - we have thousands every day in the 2 main forums I have responsibility for

Why don't you be more proactive an report stuff? Whenever I see a thread like this I trawl back through reports for examples of the issue being raised, but I cannot see any from you over the past 16 months relating to threads in which travellers have been discussed

anewme

dulpit wrote: »

But there is a general tolerance by a cohort of boards users (could be a majority, I don't know) to any traveller bashing, it's just accepted. It's an awful shame really, but I don't know what can be done.
.

It was raised under another feedback thread that there needs to be more transparency as to what is/what is not acceptable as the current charter may be a bit loose.

There will be some people (the cohort you reference) who dont want this transparency, because it will curtail their behaviour.

But it would be great if it could be considered.

anewme

Beasty wrote: »

We simply cannot review every post - we have thousands every day in the 2 main forums I have responsibility for

Why don't you be more proactive an report stuff? Whenever I see a thread like this I trawl back through reports for examples of the issue being raised, but I cannot see any from you over the past 16 months relating to threads in which travellers have been discussed

Is there a way to view a copy of your own reported posts?

I reported a number of them on the who lives here thread and havent seen any updates on them?

I suppose though when you see it like that- that there are often thousands to action daily, that the enormity of the task facing Mods is brought home and why other posts near or beside a bad post is not automatically picked up.

Beasty

anewme wrote: »

Is there a way to view a copy of your own reported posts?

I reported a number of them on the who lives here thread and havent seen any updates on them?

I suppose though when you see it like that- that there are often thousands to action daily, that the enormity of the task facing Mods is brought home and why other posts near or beside a bad post is not automatically picked up.

Reports go to a dedicated forum which only Mods/CMods/Admins can access

There are not "thousands" of reports. I mentioned thousands of posts per day which means we simply cannot find time to review posts - we rely very heavily on reports

Beasty

Just to add though - I spent pretty much all the time between my two posts above reviewing reports. There remain a lot more to go through that have not already been reviewed across CA and Coronavirus forums

[Deleted User]

Beasty wrote: »

We simply cannot review every post - we have thousands every day in the 2 main forums I have responsibility for

Why don't you be more proactive an report stuff? Whenever I see a thread like this I trawl back through reports for examples of the issue being raised, but I cannot see any from you over the past 16 months relating to threads in which travellers have been discussed

in fairness, where would you even begin?

It's so normalised that if you reported one post, why not report a dozen of them?
And that creates a problem for mods, too – how can you action one post without actioning the majority who (seemingly) openly share an anti-traveller prejudice?

You'd have to be blind to honestly claim you've never seen anti traveller bigotry go unchallenged here. Nobody believes that.

corks finest

dulpit wrote: »

Something has been annoying me more and more over the last few months regarding boards. It seems that across a wider and wider portion of the site, people feel free to make sweeping anti traveller stereotypes with no real repercussions. AH and Current affairs forums have them all the time, and the post would need to be pretty egregious to have some sort of warning applied.

What's worse is that it's now across the site. I've seen comments in places like the radio forum, and today there was a thread about somebody who witnessed a car hit another car and drive away, it took maybe 5 posts for somebody to suggest it was travellers.

Why is this tolerated? I can understand the moderators can only do so much, but I still think its not being called out for what it is, racism/bigotry. If you replaced traveller with any other community/race it would attract site bans all the time, but apparently travellers are still largely fair game here.

This has been creeping across the site over the last few years and it's making the site less enjoyable to use. I have no idea what can be done about it, but it would be interesting to see if the mods and/or boards itself have any sort of insights here?

Google westmeath yesterday, feud, same going on all over the country at different times

knucklehead6

anewme wrote: »

Is there a way to view a copy of your own reported posts?

I reported a number of them on the who lives here thread and havent seen any updates on them?

I suppose though when you see it like that- that there are often thousands to action daily, that the enormity of the task facing Mods is brought home and why other posts near or beside a bad post is not automatically picked up.

I’ll make the same point I made in the previous thread you referred to. People asking mods to justify their actions (or inactions where a report was deemed to be spurious) is quite simply a ridiculous demand on mods. Oversight is provided by CMods and admins. The mods are volunteers. There is quite simply no justification to make demands on their unpaid time to satisfy the general users.

Oversight is there to make sure mods are behaving in a proper fashion in relation to their forums. The mods of PI/RI have to take a much less lenient view of posts than the mods in AH/CA. I’m using those 4 forums as examples.

Leg End Reject

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I’ll make the same point I made in the previous thread you referred to. People asking mods to justify their actions (or inactions where a report was deemed to be spurious) is quite simply a ridiculous demand on mods. Oversight is provided by CMods and admins. The mods are volunteers. There is quite simply no justification to make demands on their unpaid time to satisfy the general users.

Oversight is there to make sure mods are behaving in a proper fashion in relation to their forums. The mods of PI/RI have to take a much less lenient view of posts than the mods in AH/CA. I’m using those 4 forums as examples.

Just to add, a mod did delete some posts in that thread so the report was obviously seen.

When the concern was raised on the thread I PMed a mod too to check what we had posted, but another mod get there first, obviously a result of the reported post, so I'm unsure where the confusion is.

anewme

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I’ll make the same point I made in the previous thread you referred to. People asking mods to justify their actions (or inactions where a report was deemed to be spurious) is quite simply a ridiculous demand on mods. Oversight is provided by CMods and admins. The mods are volunteers. There is quite simply no justification to make demands on their unpaid time to satisfy the general users.

Oversight is there to make sure mods are behaving in a proper fashion in relation to their forums. The mods of PI/RI have to take a much less lenient view of posts than the mods in AH/CA. I’m using those 4 forums as examples.

You keep using the unpaid volunteers line. The responsibility for this site does not rest with its unpaid volunteers. No one is asking unpaid Volunteers to justify their actions, they are asking for the beneficial owners to take responsibility.

Not a disrespect to volunteers, but Boards.ie is a Commercial entity and with that comes responsibility for Boards Management and owners.

I'll use your own feedback as an example here.

I believe by sharing photos of someones home and insinuating that they are thieves or dishonest because their home looks like a "traveller chic" home is racism and discrimination at its most basic, yet you deem it ok as its followed by a passive agressive smiley face.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Just to add, a mod did delete some posts in that thread so the report was obviously seen.

When the concern was raised on the thread I PMed a mod too to check what we had posted, but another mod get there first, obviously a result of the reported post, so I'm unsure where the confusion is.

In the interests of transparency: there is no confusion.

Bad faith threads though.

I clearly said on my post here that the posts I reported under GDPR were deleted but the bad taste posts remain.

Laughing at dead peoples homes is at best dickish behaviour, no? Certainly up there in my view (another reason why definitions are needed)

The report I'm referring to refers to a different home, posting the address and insinuating that it was a travellers home and the contents were obtained by dishonest means.

The posts claiming that the contents of that home were obtained off the back of a truck or because someone else is missing their contents remain on the thread.

The residents of that home have done nothing more than offer their home for sale. They dont deserve to be ridiculed and labelled thieves because they dont share the same interior design tastes as you.